Save Our Bryn

Goodbye

2009-12-01T20:55:00.002Z

As the Bryn has now been 'Saved' no more need for this site however you can get regular updates from the new blogsite from the Bryn Users Assoication

http://bryn-euryn-users-association.blogspot.com

Thanks for all those who helped

Pioneer Write Up

2009-11-26T20:18:00.000Z

Copy below of the write up in this weeks Pioneer

Bryn Euryn Plans Dropped
Published date: 25 November 2009 Published by: Anna Glover

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/81934/bryn-euryn-plans-dropped.aspx

POLITICIANS are delighted “mean-spirited” nature reserve plans have been dropped.
Walkers and Bryn Euryn users have battled to stop management committee plans to fence off large parts of the reserve for grazing. The plans were introduced in a bid to protect rare grass at the site.
David Jones, MP for Clwyd West, said: “This was a misconceived and, frankly, mean-spirited proposal which would have ruined the enjoyment of hundreds of people who walk Bryn Euryn on a daily basis. Bryn Euryn has always been used entirely for leisure purposes and the possibility of introducing livestock onto the site was generally unwelcome.”
This week the committee announced the plans would not go ahead, after conducting a feasibility study into the proposal.
Darren Millar, AM for Clwyd West, paid tribute to determined walkers and users of the reserve. He said: “I'm delighted that these unpopular proposals have been kicked into touch - they should never have seen the light of day in the first place. 'It is a great shame that the council did not see fit to drop the proposals altogether following the public meeting which was held in July, that said, at least the voice of the people prevailed in the end.
"As a result of this decision, users of the Bryn, including those who exercise their dogs, will still be able to enjoy unrestricted access to what is one of the few open green spaces left in the Rhos area.”
The recently established Bryn Euryn Users Association, which is made up of members of the public, celebrated a double victory after they were invited to take permanent representation on the committee.
Mr Millar said: “Their involvement of the association in the management of the reserve going forward is excellent news and should assist in preventing stand offs like this in the future.”

Weekly News write up

2009-11-26T20:13:00.001Z

Copy of the write up in this weeks Weekly News, is it just me or is the comment from the council a little odd?

Walkers win in Rhos-on-Sea nature reserve fight
Nov 26 2009 by Richard Evans, North Wales Weekly News
http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2009/11/26/walkers-win-in-rhos-on-sea-nature-reserve-fight-55243-25252942/

A POPULAR nature reserve has been saved for walkers after Conwy County Council dropped its plans to graze cattle there.
The council proposed in the summer to graze ponies on Bryn Euryn in Rhos-on-Sea to manage the limestone grassland by creating a pasture to cut costs.
It was also hoped that by charging animal owners the council would generate an income from allowing livestock to be grazed for part of the year.
But at a meeting of the Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve Management Advisory Group on Monday afternoon, the plans were scrapped.
Residents had formed the Bryn Euryn Users’ Association and argued that grazing ponies would ruin the nature reserve for dog walkers and ramblers as areas would need to be fenced off.
Several meetings had taken place with residents, and public feeling was so strong against the plans that over 200 people turned up at Colwyn Cricket Club in September to protest.
Gill Harvey of Rhos-on-Sea is chair of the Users’ Association and was more than satisfied with the news.
“It is fantastic. There are hundreds of people who are pleased, not just me,” she said.
“The fact our voice has been heard is really positive, and now we can have better involvement with the area.
“Had it gone ahead there would have been a lot of disappointed people who had lost a priceless facility, an accessible oasis that people really do appreciate and it is in our interests for it to remain that way for future generations.
“I’ve used Bryn Euryn since I was a child to play. We’ve done this not just for dog walkers; there are people who go up for a walk and people who take their kids. It is a valuable resource.”
Clwyd West MP David Jones had been involved with the residents’ protest and was pleased the matter had been resolved. “This was a misconceived and, frankly, mean-spirited proposal which would have ruined the enjoyment of hundreds of people who walk Bryn Euryn on a daily basis,” he said.
“Bryn Euryn has always been used entirely for leisure purposes and the possibility of introducing livestock onto the site was unwelcome.
“Users of Bryn Euryn fought a vigorous and very effective campaign, starting with the rally in June, and continuing with the very well attended and robust meeting in September.”
A spokeswoman for Conwy County Council commented: “As such, there are now no plans to introduce grazing livestock to Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve.”
richard.evans

David Jones MP - Good news from the Bryn

2009-11-25T10:28:00.002Z

From the web site of David Jones MP, his support has been very helpful in securing victory

http://davidjonesblog.com/2009/11/23/good-news-for-the-bryn/

Excellent news this evening. The Bryn Euryn management committee, having considered a feasibility study, has resolved not to turn over any part of the Bryn to grazing, which will allow continued unrestricted access to walkers and their dogs.
I cannot recall any local proposal that was more unpopular than this one. A campaign that began with a rally in June (see above) and continued with a packed and very robust public meeting in September has had an entirely satisfactory conclusion.
This was a mean-spirited and misconceived proposal that was rightly rejected and vigorously opposed by the users of the Bryn. Its defeat is a tribute to all involved in the campaign. Well done, everyone!

Darren Millar AM - Bryn Euryn grazing plans rejected

2009-11-25T10:19:00.002Z

From Darren Millar's web site, his support has been very helpful in securing victory and his comment that the council should have abandoned plans back in July when they witnessed the strength of public opposition has been echoed by many...

http://www.darrenmillaram.com/index.php?sectionid=3&pagenumber=465

Clwyd West AM Darren Millar has welcomed news that proposals to introduce grazing on large parts of the Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve in Rhos-on-Sea have been unanimously rejected by the reserve's Management Advisory Group.
Plans to fence off large parts of the reserve for grazing as part of the sustainable management of rare grasses on the site had been put forward by Conwy County Borough Council officers. They met with fierce opposition from locals.

The recently established Bryn Euryn Users Association has also been invited to permanent representation on the Management Advisory Group in the future.

Darren Millar said, 'I'm delighted that these unpopular proposals have been kicked into touch - they should never have seen the light of day in the first place.

'It is a great shame that the council did not see fit to drop the proposals altogether following the public meeting which was held in July, that said, at least the voice of the people prevailed in the end.

'As a result of this decision, users of the Bryn, including those who exercise there dogs, will still be able to enjoy unrestricted access to what is one of the few open green spaces left in the Rhos area.

'I want to pay tribute to the recently established Bryn Euryn Users Association for their hard work in securing this important victory - it has been a pleasure to campaign alongside them.'

'Their involvement of the Association in the management of the reserve going forward is excellent news and should assist in preventing stand offs like this in the future.'

Victory for common sense, and people power

2009-11-23T20:48:00.002Z

See below copy of email received this evening from the Bryn Euryn User Association, a victory for common sense, and people power I think!

Todays Bryn Euryn MAG meeting.

Wonderful news! The feasibility study and proposed grazing on Bryn Euryn was unanimously rejected at the meeting this afternoon. We are delighted that our Association now has a permanent place on the Management Group with full voting rights so all Bryn users will have a voice on all future plans regarding the area. We will tell you all about it at the meeting on Wednesday. Just to remind you we have a talk by the RSPB, a fun quiz, a raffle, and a chance for everyone to relax without having to don wellies and wade through mud.We wish to thank all of you for your support, emails and letters, without which we couldn't have achieved such a fantastic result.Hope to see you Wednesday.

Another letter

2009-11-19T21:46:00.000Z

To the members of the Bryn Euryn MAG
Re Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve.
I would like to outline my opposition to any introduction of livestock on Bryn Euryn. Aside from all the arguments about the various practical problems not redressed in the feasibility study, I would like to air my very personal reasons why I was horrified when I first heard what was proposed.
From a young child, I was taken for walks to Pwllycrochan Woods, Flagstaff Gardens (now the Zoo) and Bryn Euryn. They helped develop my love of nature and I found they brought peace and wonder into my life. The freedom to explore and observe my surroundings, from the heady smell of bluebells, the majesty of the woodland, to the feeling of being on top of the world from the summit of the Bryn. The years passed, the world changed around me but the Bryn remained a constant. It has been my sanctuary in times of stress. I’ve carried my unborn children there, taken my young children for picnics to explore their natural surrounding and look at the beautiful area they are lucky to live in. As they grew they went up with friends and school to play and discover its wonders for themselves, something which is becoming increasingly rare these days. Where else can you let your children roam without fearing for their safety from traffic or livestock? Now my children are grown and the cycle is starting over again with their children visiting and enjoying this same freedom.
Before the grazing issue was proposed I used to see the remnants of old fences and gates and feel so grateful that the area is now open to all. It felt like a slap in the face to be told of the plans to erect fencing and introduce grazing as if it had nothing to do with the people who love and use the area daily. How dare they tell us they want to use us as ‘lookers’ and they will ‘train’ our dogs? We don’t want grazing so why do they think we will lift a finger to help. Why risk throwing away all the good will we have shown over the years. People are only too willing to help preserve such an outstanding amenity, but not to see it covered in wire fences, angle iron and gates. Much is said about the lack of community spirit these days, but it’s alive and well on Bryn Euryn. Don’t drive us all away and destroy something so valuable.

Another reaction to the feasibility report

2009-11-19T21:15:00.003Z

Copy of a letter highlighting concerns

I have recently retired from farming and keeping horses and ponies for 50 years. I have been an active member of the British Horse Society and an Area Commissioner for the British Driving Society, Meirionydd area, and these are my comments on the feasibility of grazing animals on Bryn Euryn.
Grazing is successful on Anglesey, but there is no comparison between the areas on Anglesey and Bryn Euryn. Holyhead Breakwater Park is approx. 1,000 acres, and the majority of the users are concentrated around the visitor centre, shop and boating lake. The ponies are on the open moorland and have about 50 acres to graze. Ponies are also grazed above Trearddur Bay, but are fenced onto the land around the land owners’ house away from the public footpath, with sheep netting which is dog-proof. Ponies are also used in Newborough Forest, but yet again not in contact with Forest Users.
Bryn Euryn would be two small paddocks with unlimited public access and plain wire fencing. While the majority of dog walkers are responsible, there are a lot of people who have no control over their dogs and let them run wild. Responsible owners do not need a course on controlling their dogs and the others would not bother – so courses would be a waste of time and money.
Also signs would be a further eyesore and expense, and would be ignored as are the signs which say - No Camping – No litter – No fires and Bag and Bin dog mess. As to reporting incidents to the warden, that’s a joke. From personal experience, at 4.30pm he’s gone home, we’ll tell him in the morning. Surely his hours should be flexible to cover evenings and weekends when common sense dictates that’s when incidents happen.
No responsible owner would put their animals into such an unsuitable environment and public liability Insurance would be difficult to obtain. Putting animals onto small paddocks, out of sight, away from the owners home, with unlimited public access, dogs running free, no warden cover and a history of vandalism and anti social behaviour, especially as the owner is looking for members of the public to look out for them, to save them the bother of daily visits. The Carneddan Herd were applying to be exempt from having passports for their ‘wild ponies’ to be in line with Exmoor and Dartmoor etc. If they were successful in this campaign, their ponies would have no passports or microchips, which would make it illegal to move them from their home ground – which in itself would invalidate any insurance, and if they want to use the grazing they should transport them at their own cost.
According to information from the CCW, the cost of strimming is £1,500 of which they pay half, NOT the £3000 which you claim the Council pay.
The paddocks would NOT support 5 ponies for 4months. September – December, as well as supplementary feeding, they would require extra minerals to prevent them killing trees by stripping the bark, to provide them with the extras they need to change their coats from summer to winter. Unless droppings are cleared from small paddocks they soon become sick and sour, weeds take over and the horses suffer from worms. The paddocks are too small for the ponies to keep themselves out of harm’s way, in fact it makes them easier prey for dogs or vandals to chase. If chased by dogs, ponies will often retaliate by chasing and striking out with their forelegs and kicking.
If you insist on carrying on with this hare-brained scheme, in wasting tens of thousands of pounds of Public Money against public wishes, when the cry is there is not enough funding for essential services, then you obviously have no need of further Council Tax from me, and if any animal is put into a potentially dangerous situation, I will contact all animal welfare organisations on a daily basis until they are removed to a place of safety, hopefully before a tragedy happens. Feel free to contact me about any points I have raised.
Yours sincerelyMrs S

Concerned Rate Payers!

2009-11-18T21:07:00.004Z

Darren Millar's letter has arrived through several letter boxes this morning, there have been a few letters objecting to the council plans, we'll publish all those we get a copy of...

I am writing in response to a letter recieved from AM Darren Millar inviting me to express my feelings regarding the issue of livestock on Bryn Euryn.

May i commence with letting you know i am firmly opposed to the plans on a number of levels. On a personal note i have grown up with the Bryn on my door step, as a child i would make dens, go sledging in winter and generally enjoy the freedom of having this natural reservation as a safe place to go with friends. I remember going for picnics and learning about its history with parents and going on walks and environmental lessons when i was a child in LLandrillo Junior school with the teachers. All of these experiences i would have liked my own children to have but i would obviously be concerned to allow them such freedom if unsupervised animals and restrictions were put in place. The reasons being danger to children from the animals if the animals became scared, danger to the animals by older less responsible children. I recall an incident in Mochdre where teenage children were responsible for the death of one pony. Finally of course who could go sledging on a field full of ponies with dangerous fencing to crash into and injure themselves on.

Areas to enjoy unspoilt by restrictions are limited in this area already. I have given thought to other places with such a range of history, wildlife and above all unresticted by policies or cattle (llandudno fields), sheep (penrhynside), ponies/donkeys (Llandudno), goats (Great Orme). I honestly can't think of anywhere!!

Now onto my daily enjoyment, walking my dog. Currently we are restricted in our walks to a choice of a lead walk or a free run of Bryn Euryn. The beach is restricted, a dog is not allowed on the beach in Rhos -on -sea. We are allowed on near Colwyn Bay, which without having a large amount of time on my hands i can only go to if i drive there. Which to me seems against what the council is working towards which is to help the environment. I understand the fencing will not only stop us using the field to enjoy the views whilst the dogs run but we can't even use the path as it is to run though the field. Ruining another walk as it will become restricted by leads and fear for the ponies, myself and my dog. The fence proposed is dangerous for the dogs as they do not always see the wires until tangled in it or impaled on it. I understand you are looking into providing training for us and our dogs, this however probably won't be required as the reason i go is to let him run there SAFELY. Which will not be possible with the bottom field as an allotment and the second field homing ponies, i will no longer be able to go there. I do not see how dog training will help the council as many bryn euryn users are not always from the area.

I feel the council are not listening, i rarely feel so strongly about an issue. I pay my council tax, i clean up after my dog (who will clean up the pony mess?), i am a professional working woman who enjoys seeing the views and having time out from the chaos of daily life on Bryn Euryn. I know if this goes a head people will not go there as much, the fences over time won't be maintained (fences there now have been reported following an injury to a dog and nothing was done), it is just a waste of public money on something the public who use the Bryn don't want.

In summary if the proposed plans go a head. It will be a sad day for the public who use the Bryn and for the future generations who will miss out on the experiences i was lucky enough to have.

Mrs C. Jones

Plea for Dog Control

2009-11-18T21:02:00.002Z

From the councils own web site, 16/11/09 - Plea for Dog Control

The Orme has a long history of grazing, lots of big open spaces and they still have problems, what hope for the Bryn with no grazing in living memory, small paddocks and surrounded by urban areas!!

The Country Park Warden and the grazier on the Great Orme would like to make dog walkers aware that sheep are once again grazing within the Country Park.
Last week two sheep were killed as a direct result of being chased by a dog off the cliffs above Pen Trwyn; this is the second such incident in as many weeks.
To maintain the wildflower grasslands and the unique species that rely on them, such as the Silver-studded Blue and Grayling butterflies, it is essential that sheep continue to graze on the Great Orme.
The grazier, Mr. Emrys Jones, invests much time and money into his sheep and said that Monday's incident was totally irresponsible and that he was disappointed that people seem unable to keep their dogs under control.
Country Park Warden, Sally Pidcock added, "Dogs have also been lost over the cliffs and killed in their pursuit of sheep, goats and other wildlife. A minority of dog owners seem not to care that their dog is chasing sheep and can be openly hostile to anyone who approaches them on the matter. If only they realised that their dog is also at risk."

http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?cat=142&doc=25183&Language=1

Social Evening - Wednesday 25th November – 7.30pm

2009-11-17T23:29:00.001Z

Wednesday 25th November – 7.30pm, Colwyn Bay Cricket Club, Penrhyn Avenue, Rhos-on-sea.

Letter from Darren Millar

2009-11-17T23:20:00.002Z

We are very grateful to Darren Millar AM who has kindley written to all members of the Bryn Euryn Users Association, details below

Darren Millar AM / AC
Shadow Minister for Communities and Local Government
Gweinidog yr Wrthblaid dros Gymunedau a Llywodraeth Leol

Welsh Conservative Member for Clwyd West
Aelod y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig dros Orllewin Clwyd

Dear ,

Re: Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve

I am writing to you as a person that has expressed an interest in the future of the Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve.

You will be aware that the management advisory group is currently considering proposals to change the way that the site is managed via the introduction of grazing on part of the reserve. The proposal has been subject to a feasibility study and a report will be considered by the advisory group next week when they will decide whether to proceed with the proposal or not.

It is essential that the voice of the local community and the users of Bryn Euryn is not ignored in this process and it is therefore vital that as many local residents as possible write in with their views.

The recently established Bryn Euryn Users Association has agreed to collate responses and would be very pleased to receive your comments. Their contact details are as follows and your views should be forwarded by noon on Monday, 23rd November:

bryn.euryn.users.assoc@hotmail.com

The Association has been invited to send a representative to attend the meeting next week and will ensure that your views are relayed to the committee.

In making your representations you may like to consider the following:-

1. Bryn Euryn currently allows unrestricted access for all members of the public.

2. Should the grazing proposals be implemented then the public would have restrictions placed on them when using the parts of the site designated for livestock grazing.

3. The local authority has acknowledged the lack of public open space in the area.

4. Bryn Euryn could still be managed sustainably without grazing and deliver the same conservation outcomes.

5. The local authority has acknowledged that financial considerations have been a factor in the decision to bring forward grazing proposals.

6. Bryn Euryn is currently a popular exercise area for dogs and their walkers. Many consider the introduction of livestock to be incompatible with this use.

7. The Bryn Euryn Users Association is keen to play an active role in helping to support the management of the site in the future.

Should you require any further information then please do not hesitate to contact my constituency office.

Yours sincerely,

Darren Millar AM

Warning - Rant coming up!

2009-11-15T16:53:00.005Z

Is it just me or do you get the feeling that grass and ponies are far more important than people, their offspring and dogs? Having just waded through the Feasibility study and its pages of risk assessment, I found it incomprehensible that there was only one small entry regarding the safety of the users of the area. Do they not read the papers, or watch TV? All the recent deaths of walkers crossing fields of cattle, and the little boy on 'The One Show' left brain damaged after being kicked in the head by a horse when crossing a field with his sister. Do they not think this will put people off using the grassland, or is this the plan? To the Grass Police we are an inconvenience to be ignored or educated into their way of thinking. Never mind that our kids could be garroted by wire fencing when sledging or our dogs injured hitting the wire when distracted by a squirrel. Obviously troughs of water will pose no hazards to children, and people will happily have picnics in fields of ponies. Schools and clubs will ignore all health and safety and insurance guidelines and march their charges up there without a second thought.
We are of course going to be offered training for our dogs. The very dogs who have enjoyed freedom and not been used to sharing their play times with livestock, or who are taken there precisely because they are not safe with them. Are they going to offer this service to all the 'infrequent' visitors who come at weekends and holidays? And to top it all off we are expected to act as 'lookers', doing their job for them and clearing up the mess they are determined to create.
Perfectly adapted native species of yew, bracken and ragwort are to be eradicated. Never mind that they provide shelter and nectar to insects and small mammals. Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve should be renamed Bryn Euryn Local Grass Reserve for all the consideration any other forms of nature are given. Think on Countryside Services, you rely on us to be your eyes and ears with the vandals you are aware of now, so why are you deliberately doing your level best to alienate all the ratepayers who pay your wages? Sabotage gets the highest rating on your risk assessment, is this because of the widely reported vandalism or are you aware you are risking turning mild mannered, law abiding citizens into dis empowered angry saboteurs?

Puppy Watch Update

2009-11-14T11:05:00.003Z

As something different take a look at the updates on PuppyCam: -

http://www.northumbria.police.uk/about_us/dogs/puppycam/index.asp

Risk assessment error

2009-11-13T22:13:00.001Z

Six pages of risk assessments to the animals, just half a page of risk assessment for humans!

Risk assessment for humans is totally inadequate –

Probability should be 'possible' – the score should be 2, several recent reports in the press of walkers attacked by grazing animals

Severity should be 'death' – score should 5, as fatalities from attacks by grazing animals have been reported not to mention a child kill when a sledge crashed into a post and wire fence of the type the council are proposing

Risk = Probability x Severity 2 x 5 = 10 this is too high a risk and measures should be taken to reduce

Sheep grazing in the 1940s?

2009-11-13T21:43:00.001Z

The council report says: -

Some people local to Bryn Euryn have indicated that they have clear memories of sheep grazing the Bryn in the 1940s, however others have said they have no recollection of ever seeing any grazing on the hill

How come no one at the public meeting did? If the council are going to carryon making these claims could they provide details of who is actually claiming this?

More risk assessment

2009-11-13T21:09:00.004Z

Page 5

Page 6

Page 7

Page 8 - a little bit about the risk to people

Risk assessment

2009-11-13T20:57:00.005Z

Risk assessment, but mainly for the animals...

Page 2

Page 3

Page 4

How convenient…

2009-11-13T20:47:00.004Z

Our Development Control section has advised that grazing is unlikely to require planning permission as agricultural use of land is exempt.

This goes against the advice we have received from a land surveyor, see link http://save-our-bryn.blogspot.com/2009/10/what-land-profesional-thinks-of-plans.html

Appendix 3 Map

2009-11-13T20:40:00.002Z

Appendix 3 Map

Appendix 2

2009-11-13T20:37:00.002Z

Appendix 2

Feasibility Exercise in respect of the potential for grazing on Bryn Euryn

2009-11-13T20:32:00.001Z

Sorry some of the formatting has been lost but please see below the long awaited feasibility study, let us know what you think!

Conwy County Borough Council

Highways and Infrastructure Services

Feasibility Exercise in respect of the potential for grazing on Bryn Euryn
Local Nature Reserve

November 2009

CONTENTS

Page number
1 Introduction
3
1.1 Background to Bryn Euryn – designations and management
3
1.2 Background to SSSI management
3
1.3 Background to the feasibility exercise
4
2 Feasibility Assessments
5
2.1 Legal restrictions
5
2.2 Livestock and grazing considerations
6
2.3 Interest from potential graziers
7
2.4 Fencing
7
2.5 Public access
7
2.6 Water source
8
2.7 Access to land by grazier
8
2.8 Division of responsibilities between grazier and Conwy CBC
8
2.9 Grazing animals as an attraction
9
2.10 Carbon Footprint
9
3 Cost / Benefit Analysis
9
4 Risk Assessment
10
5 Summary of outstanding issues
10

Appendix 1 – Risk Assessment

Appendix 2 – Lookers Action Plan

Appendix 3 – Grazing options map

1 Introduction

1.1 Background to Bryn Euryn – designations and management
Bryn Euryn is one of 22 Countryside Sites managed by the Countryside and Rights of Way Service for informal countryside recreation and nature conservation. The nature conservation interest of the site has long been recognised, as has the high level of recreational use. The site also has archaeological interest, with the summit hillfort and Llys Euryn mansion both being Scheduled Ancient Monuments. The Council owns 25.5 hectares of the hill.
Much of the site is designated a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) as it is of national importance for its biological interest i.e. the semi-natural calcicolous grassland communities, including four Nationally Scarce plant species. Bryn Euryn is one of eight SSSIs in Conwy which are notified for their calcicolous grassland/woodland interest. Lowland calcareous grasslands are a key habitat in the Biodiversity UK Action Plan, requiring priority protection and having an internationally important status.
In March 1997, the Planning Committee resolved to progress the declaration of the area as a Local Nature Reserve (LNR), to reflect its importance for wildlife together with its community/educational value, a process which would be facilitated by a Management Advisory Group (MAG). In October 1999 Bryn Euryn was officially declared a LNR. The MAG, which consists of local councillors and representatives of local/national bodies, continues to meet biannually to oversee the management of the LNR.
There is a network of paths criss-crossing the Bryn. There are several public footpaths leading onto the Bryn but once on the hill they lose their practical importance, as the hill has open access and the public footpaths on the map often bear little resemblance to those on the ground. The Summit Trail is a circular promoted route which starts at the car park and links Llys Euryn mansion and the summit hillfort. The Bryn Euryn leaflet includes this trail and it is waymarked on the ground.
The Bryn is mainly used by local people and many of these are regular dog walkers. Some people local to Bryn Euryn have indicated that they have clear memories of sheep grazing the Bryn in the 1940s, however others have said they have no recollection of ever seeing any grazing on the hill. When Colwyn Borough Council leased the Bryn for a period of ten years from the 30th November 1924, the user covenant was to use it for grazing purposes and as a public pleasure ground. Although the Lease terms ceased to have any effect when the freehold was acquired in 1932, for whatever reason the user restrictions were not repeated in the freehold covenants. Certainly in more recent times it is only rabbits that have grazed the Bryn.

1.2 Background to SSSI management
In 1957, 56 acres were identified as a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) by the Nature Conservancy Council (forerunner of CCW) under Section 23 of the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949. This included most of the Council’s land holding, and both the woodland and grassland were included within the SSSI boundary.
In 1983 the site was re-notified as an SSSI under Section 28 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, at which time a list of operations likely to cause damage to the special interest of the site was also issued to the Council as owners of the land. At this time the size of the SSSI was considerably reduced by excluding the woodland areas. The new SSSI is only 11.5 ha and is confined to the grasslands.
The purpose of scrub control and mowing is to maintain and restore the limestone grassland habitat. If natural succession was allowed to take place the site would turn into scrub/woodland with loss of open space. As the site is designated as a SSSI for its limestone grasslands then the Council has a duty to maintain that interest.
There was some limited scrub control near the summit by Clwyd Countryside Service in the early 1990s. In 1996 the site started to be actively managed by Conwy County Borough Council’s Countryside Service, following the scrub control areas indicated in the Countryside Council for Wales’ (CCW) management plan. In 1996 the upper meadow was covered in scattered trees and these were initially cut and treated by volunteers. The lower meadow had two large bramble patches and trees/scrub had encroached along the edges.
From 1997 to 2004, both meadows were mown and raked off. From 2005 onwards, when the Council entered a Section 15 agreement with CCW, the lower meadow has been mown and raked off in August/September. The upper meadow has been mown less frequently and in sections. Weedwiping of re-grown saplings has augmented the mowing. The scrub edge on both meadows has been pushed back in strips and mown the following summer.
Consideration is being given to mowing the lower meadow twice each summer to try and reduce the density of perennial rye grass.

1.3 Background to the feasibility exercise
The purpose of the feasibility exercise is to look at the viability of grazing as a potentially more sustainable option over the long-term than the current mowing and raking regime.
The concept of a feasibility study into grazing has been in the management plan since 2001 but was only specifically discussed by the MAG in April 2009. The MAG agreed that a feasibility study should be undertaken and re-confirmed this in July, after local opposition to the idea of grazing was expressed.
Mowing is an artificial replacement for grazing. The table below (from the Lowland Grassland Management Handbook) shows a comparison of grazing and mowing from a conservation perspective.

2 Feasibility Assessments
2.1 Legal Restrictions
There are two uncertainties in respect of the existing covenant: whether grazing would be deemed a business and whether the proposals would be deemed to significantly restrict the public’s recreational use of the area. If either of these applies then grazing is potentially precluded.
The benefit of the covenants on the Bryn are vested in the Cayley Estate. It is the Estate which could therefore enforce the covenants by holding the Council in breach of covenant.
The Cayley estate has been approached, as part of this exercise, to establish its initial view on these matters. Their response was:-
“if the proposed grazing is done for the stated purpose and no payment is received as a consideration for the same then this would not be a trade, business or profession. It would perhaps be an occupation but as the rights of public would have to be reserved in any licence to occupy then this would not be an exclusive occupation.

The wording of the Conveyance would also appear to be interesting in that it does not expressly state that the future use of the land is to be that of a public open space, since it is provided that the trade or business of a caterer, confectioner, provider of refreshments or tobacconist in any club room, pavilion, cafe or refreshment room as duly authorised by the Council would not be a breach of the relevant covenant affecting the land.

In essence, we do not believe that what is proposed by the Council as set out in your said e.mail would amount to a breach of the relevant terms of the said Conveyance, but if there is any divergence from such proposals then we would expect to be notified.”

Our Development Control section has advised that grazing is unlikely to require planning permission as agricultural use of land is exempt.

2.2 Livestock and Grazing Considerations
Due to the number of dogs on the site sheep are not thought suitable due to the potential for dogs worrying sheep. Cattle would graze similarly to ponies but are perceived by the public to be more dangerous. Tame ponies could be a problem if people are feeding them.
Semi-feral ponies, from the nearby Carneddau herds, would be suitable as they will move away from people and not beg for food or be near enough to be injured by anyone. They would be hardy and able to withstand the weather. They are small and attractive so are generally liked by the public.
These ponies are being used to good effect at Breakwater Country Park near Holyhead and on other sites on Anglesey, and nearer, at Maes y Fachell on the Orme.
Both the lower and upper meadows have an area of about 2.25 - 2.3 haeach (perimeter of each circa 700-710m). There is sufficient grazing for five ponies per enclosure. The ideal grazing regime, in terms of conservation management would require grazing of the paddocks for two months in spring and four months late summer early /autumn (to allow most of the flowers to set seed).
CCW’s priority is, initially, for the Upper Meadow to be grazed. CCW considers that the Lower Meadow needs mowing twice each summer for several years to reduce the density of the perennial rye grass, to bring it into condition for grazing. The crags are seen as a lower priority, mainly because the grassland there is less threatened by scrub invasion and manual control of re-invasion by non-native cotoneasters and evergreen oak is the priority. Three options are presented:-
Option 1: Fence out and graze the upper meadow only and continue to mow
the lower meadow.
Option 2: Fence out and graze the upper and lower meadows. No mowing.
Option 3: Fence both meadows and graze as one unit. No mowing.

See Appendix 3 for grazing options map.

2.3 Interest from potential graziers
Two graziers have been contacted who are potentially interested. One is involved with the Carneddau ponies. However, he has indicated that this may be conditional upon some financial input from the Council in respect of transportation of ponies.
The other has Welsh mountain ponies, which are used to people going through the field on a public footpath.
There are other people involved with the Carneddau ponies but the person we have contacted would be the main contact.
If cattle were to be considered we would need to search for local smallholders with such breeds as Dexters or Highland Cattle.

2.4 Fencing
High tensile line wire fencing is considered suitable for ponies. Three line wires would be supported by split chestnut posts or angle iron on rockier ground. Barbed wire at the top or bottom of the fence is not recommended in case of injury to the livestock and people.
Any fence line should avoid corners and ‘pinch points’ to minimise contact between the ponies and the public. Making one area rather than two enclosures would reduce the pinch points. Moving the fence back into the woodland and cutting escape lines in the scrub would allow more space for the animals to move away and find shelter when necessary, and would also reduce the visual impact of the fencing.
Fencing costs for each option are estimated as follows, and include for the provision of a handling / loading pen, field gates and kissing gates:
Option 1: £14, 200
Option 2: £27,045
Option 3: £22, 680

2.5 Public access
Bryn Euryn is well used and enjoyed by many local people and visitors. Many of the sites users are dog walkers. The heaviest use is on the bottom fields by the car park. The lower meadow is also quite heavily used, whilst others follow the access track or Summit Trail.
One of the bottom fields is to be turned into allotments so this will be lost to dog walkers, which then may put more pressure on the other areas of the Bryn from dog walkers.
There has been concern from a significant number of local people that the possible fencing of the upper/lower meadows would restrict their access even further in the locality.
In practice however access through the paddocks would be available at all times through the installation of kissing gates on all the main paths. Any grazing would be restricted to certain months of the year and there would be an associated need for people to keep their dogs under control at these times. Outside the paddocks, people would still be able to let their dogs run more freely but in a controlled manner, as fencing would not be dog-proof.
If Carneddau ponies were used they would tend to move away from people. In similar projects dog walkers have been trained as Lookers (to report problems) and training has been available to train dog owners how to control their dogs in the vicinity of livestock.

2.6 Water source
In order to encourage movement of the ponies through the area and to ensure adequate water, troughs will need to be situated in each paddock. If the area is managed as a whole two troughs would still be advisable. One of these could potentially be located on the house boundary and fed from the mains supply, the other could be supplied from a bowser. However, initial enquiries regarding the potential to bring mains water to the site have revealed that this is likely to be impractical. This reduces options to the use of bowsers, which would feed the troughs. The grazier would be required to ensure daily checking of the troughs (this could potentially be aided by Lookers – volunteers who check/report problems – see Appendix 2 for Lookers Action Plan).
Bowsers come as road or site models. The advantage of a road model is it can be towed to site, but the grazier may be able to trailer in a site model and a quad bike to top up the troughs on a weekly basis. Alternatively a container could be left on site with a (locked) tap and refilled as needed.
In practice, graziers use a variety of containers/tanks to carry water and a variety of troughs.

2.7 Access to land by grazier
Access would be via the track past Llys Euryn cottage. They would have a key to the gate.
See Appendix 3 for map showing details of access, holding pen and fencing.

2.8 Division of responsibilities between the grazier and Conwy CBC
Any grazier would be required to sign up to a formal tenancy agreement prior to any livestock being introduced to the site. In view of the infrastructure required at this site to make grazing possible and the associated costs of this, it would be necessary to secure an agreement with a suitable grazier prior to investing in the required infrastructure.
The tenancy agreement as a legal document would detail where the responsibilities lie in terms of the grazier and the local authority.
The local authority would have the responsibility for:
o drawing up the agreement (including cost), overseeing adherence to its terms and also in having the responsibility to terminate the agreement should the need arise.
o the maintenance of the kissing gates and provision of advisory signage.
Through the tenancy agreement the grazier would take responsibility for:
o All welfare issues relating to the livestock e.g. water supply, ragwort control, straying of livestock, veterinary care
o Maintenance of fencing and field gates, and general good condition of the holding
o Holding adequate public liability insurance
o Bringing livestock to and from the site for the required periods of grazing in the year
o Horse passports

2.9 Grazing animals as an attraction
The ponies may enhance people’s enjoyment of the Bryn and could be used as an example of conservation grazing to students. At Breakwater Country Park local people frequently stop to speak to the grazier and tell him that they like to see the ponies on the site. There have been very few adverse comments.

2.10 Carbon footprint
Grazing potentially has a lower carbon footprint than mowing but this is significantly affected by how much travelling the grazier has to do. The amount of petrol consumed by mowing this summer (mowing/raking of lower meadow and same for five metre wide strip along much of upper meadow) is 133 litres (this includes travel to site but not chemical used for weedwiping saplings). The petrol consumption for grazing depends on the number of site visits required by the grazier. In an ideal world the regular visitors to the Bryn would act as Lookers - people who check on the stock and report problems. This has worked with similar projects elsewhere and would reduce the frequency of the grazier’s visits.
Assuming the grazier travels 30 miles return, visits five days per month, for six months at 30 miles per gallon = 150 litres/year.
Assuming grazier visits daily, assuming 30 days per month = 900 litres/year.

3 Cost / Benefit analysis
The following table shows the approximate costs and break-even point for each option:

Option
Capital cost
Annual revenue cost
Break-even point (in relation to continuation of present regime)
Mechanical mowing, as at present
Nil
£3,000
-
Option 1 – grazing of upper meadow
£14,200
£2,500
28 years
Option 2 – separate grazing of upper and lower meadows
£27,045
£1,000
14 years
Option 3 – combined grazing of upper and lower meadows
£22,680
£1,000
11 years

4 Risk Assessment (See Appendix 1 for detail)
The main concerns arising from the risk assessment are:-
1. Access to secure water supply and the need to check regularly that water
is okay.
2. Removal/monitoring of poisonous plants – yew, bracken, ragwort.
3. Vandalism/sabotage: the likelihood of this is difficult to predict but is of
concern because of the distress it could potentially cause to the animals
and the potential cost/time of repairs.
4. Chasing stock by dogs.
5. Injury to the public from stock.

5 Summary of outstanding issues
Although there is some provisional interest from potential graziers (who are fully aware of all site issues and potential conditions), a grazier would still need to commit to signing a tenancy agreement.
There is uncertainty over levels of support from Lookers. In an ideal world this would help the grazier and reduce the number of his visits. In the first instance a grazier would have to assume that reliable local help with monitoring the livestock and associated infrastructure would not be forthcoming.
The level of vandalism e.g. tampering with fencing or water troughs or people/dogs chasing stock is an unknown quantity and would be of direct concern to the grazier.
Should the MAG wish to proceed with the grazing , capital funding has not been secured, although CCW have agreed a contribution of 50% to the cost of fencing.
Should the MAG wish to proceed with grazing then further consultation with the community will be required.

Allotments

2009-11-03T20:19:00.002Z

We understand works by the council to build the allotments is underway and they hope to have them ready by January?

We understand the council have planning permission for the conversion so for anyone opposing there seem little that can be done. There wasn't much in the way of objections when the planning went through, it would be a totally different if the council ever applies for planning to fence off the Bryn itself for grazing!

Local opinion on the loss of this field seems mixed, some feel allotments are a good use of the field, certainly better than the council building houses! Others want to keep the field as it is with no change.

Feel free to tells us what you think and we will post any comments.

Thoughts on the feasibility report

2009-10-27T21:39:00.002Z

We get so few comments I thought it worth highlighting this one. I couldn't agree more but I don't even think they are considering the views of the rate payers!

Anonymous said...
I hope the council will put as much time into listening to the views of the people who use Bryn Euryn as they are in doing this unwanted feasibility study! The council are dangerously close to alienating any confidence local people have privalaged them with up to now. I suggest they back down graciously before all the already stressed locals become angry.

Another comment!

Anonymous said...
I totally agree with this comment. Maybe the 10 year Council management of Bryn Euryn needs to be looked at harder before they try to hastily remedy their mismanagement mistakes. There is much information out there about mowing regimes in areas where grazing is not feasible, little of which the Council has employed over the past ten years. Blanket short mowing of whole sites, as happened this year, will never sustain a healthy bio-diverse population of grasses, wildflowers, insects, mammals and birds.
28 October 2009 00:26

Puppy Watch

2009-10-27T21:31:00.001Z

Nothing to do with the Bryn and whilst many may not be dog lovers the link below may be of interest to some: -

http://www.northumbria.police.uk/about_us/dogs/puppycam/index.asp

Feasibility Report Latest

2009-10-19T23:15:00.003+01:00

As reported a few weeks ago the Council told us the feasibility report would be available a week before they meet to decide the future of the Bryn. We asked if it could be made available sooner as we were concerned 'it would be impossible for us review, share, assess and evaluate your feasibility study in the one week time frame you are allowing us'.

The council replied:-

Many thanks for your email in which you request that the feasibility study be made available at least 3 weeks prior to the meeting on the 23rdNovember.
I have discussed this here this morning with the Countryside and Rights of Way Manager, and unfortunately we are not able to meet your request.
It is quite normal for committee papers etc to be sent out a few days prior to meetings, and that is what our timescales will allow. If, at the meeting, the view of members is that they don’t feel they have had sufficient time to digest the contents of the report, then a further meeting can always be arranged. However the week prior to the meeting should give all individual members of the group (including of course your BE Users Assoc rep) time to read the report and highlight key issues. There will be plenty of opportunity at the meeting itself for clarification of points and addressing queries.
We will aim to have the report in a format that you can email out, which should save you plenty of time getting it out to members.

Anyone would have thought the huge turn out at the cricket club objecting to the proposed grazing would have been enough for the council to abandon their crazy plans but still they plod on with the producing the feasibility report. Now, it seems we may not get a decision at the November meeting and a further meeting can be arranged! What a waste of peoples time, this group only meets twice a year normally, does this mean we all have to wait till then for a final decision?

Perhaps the council feel by dragging it out people will get bored?

I think both Dave Jones MP and Darren Millar AM asked the council at the cricket club meeting to ensure there was enough time to consult adequately once the feasibility report was published. A week doesn't really seem enough does it?

Lets hope it's a meaningful report which answers the questions regarding the need for planning permission and the legal issues as well as the huge objections against. If so then the conclusion must be to forget about the plans for grazing?

Dog Watch

2009-10-13T20:54:00.003+01:00

The Police and Dog Warden were out on the Bryn handing out presents

No grazing since 1925!

2009-10-05T21:31:00.002+01:00

The extracts in the post below in which our helpful Chartered Surveyor & Arbitrator makes comments after studying the 'title' the council holds for the Bryn - he says there has been no grazing since 1925!

If he can determine this from the council's records how come the Countryside Service keep saying grazing in the 50's or 60's? As they admitted at the recent public meeting they have no evidence of this!

Perhaps they should make an apology and ensure they don't state the same thing again, especially to the press?

What a land professional thinks of the plans

2009-10-04T15:11:00.003+01:00

We have received a copy of a letter sent by a member of the Bryn Euryn User Association to the Council’s Countryside Department. The author owns a property backing on to the Bryn and is also Chartered Surveyor & Arbitrator, well acquainted with land and grazing issues in his professional capacity. Please find below a couple of interesting extracts: -

I am writing this letter to you as a neighbour. I have to hand a copy of the Title the county holds for the 'BRYN'. Upon inspection of the Title there is a clear restrictive covenant which the county must adhere to.

The Conwy County Borough Council are successors to the Colwyn Bay Urban District Council
who held a lease for the 'Bryn' from 1925. That same council purchased the Freehold in 1932.

The restrictive covenant contained in the lease and Freehold title is referred to as clause 5. It
specifically reflects the use at that time and the reason for a Local Authority to acquire lands for
use as possible open space for leisure and recreation. The content of the clause prevents any
trade, business, profession or occupation whatever occurring upon the land other than:- Club
Room, pavilion, cafe or refreshment room associated with the leisure and recreation use.

This clause prevents the council from contemplating the fencing out areas of the 'BRYN' and the
occupation by animals provided by other parties on licence or other agreements whether for
monetary gain or free.

With reference to a similar local case: -

Planners instated that a Planning Application be submitted for change of use from recreation to agriculture. The proposed use of part of the 'BRYN' for agriculture use (grazing by any animal) will therefore necessitate a Planning Application with notice to every neighbour of the Application.

Please note that the original planning permitted relevant to 1947 was leisure recreation not
agriculture and has never since 1925 been used for agriculture.

Based on the two reasons in this letter I would suggest you seek legal advice and Planners
advice.

I obviously object to your proposal for the 'BRYN' and will advise the Objectors Association
similarly.

I hope to receive a response from you, in the meantime I will monitor the situation and if necessary advise the Association to apply to Court for an injunction if the Council breaches it's
own restrictive covenants and regulatory process.

We are very grateful for this expert advice and trust it will be considered by the council in their increasingly ‘unfeasibility report’. Indeed it seems to many of us that the council is just wasting time and money on an ill conceived plan which is massively opposed by almost all the users of the Bryn?

2009-10-03T17:02:00.001+01:00

Minutes of the Open Meeting to discuss grazing on Bryn Euryn and the Inaugural AGM of the Bryn Euryn Users Association, held on 7th September 2009 at Colwyn Bay County Cricket Club, Rhos-on-Sea.

Invited Guests:
David Jones MP
Darren Millar AM
Cllr David Roberts (Management Advisory Group - Chairman)
Cllr Philip Edwards (MAG member)
Cllr Merfyn Thomas (MAG member)
Cllr Roger Parry (MAG member)
Helen Jowett (Senior Countryside Officer)
Alun Jones (Bryn Euryn Warden)
Hilary Kehoe (PONT)
Community Beat Manager PC Richard Ward-Davies (Llandrillo-yn-Rhos)
Community Support Officer PCSO Louise Wigglesworth (Mochdre)

Bryn Euryn Users Association representatives:

Gill Harvey – Chair
Sharon Davies – Vice Chair
Susan Davies – Secretary
Kath Williams – Treasurer

Apologies:

John Osley (Countryside Council for Wales)
Tom Gravett (Countryside and Rights of way Manager)

Introductions:

The meeting was opened by Gill Harvey welcoming all guests and members of the public to the open meeting to discuss grazing on Bryn Euryn. Each guest introduced themselves to the audience and explained their positions in respect to the issue.

David Jones MP congratulated the Association on its formation and the aims to protect and preserve the area. He stated that fencing off the area would reduce people’s enjoyment and have a detrimental material effect. While he understood the reason for conservation, quangocrats should be accountable and ensure due weight should be given to the immense public feeling.

Cllr Merfyn Thomas supported David Jones and told the audience that he had voted against the feasibility study. Cllr Phil Edwards said the proposal for the feasibility study to introduce grazing was put forward by the council officers and the CCW. He said they had to look at the evidence before making a decision but that there were people in the area who supported grazing. He did not wish to spoil the enjoyment of the area but added that it might be decided to adjust the scheme to make it acceptable. Cllr David Roberts said he had voted in favour of the investigation but that it could either ‘go away’ or be amended, but that things had to change. He acknowledged that there is a problem with anti-social behaviour on the Bryn. Cllr Roger Parry said he had voted against the feasibility study, calling it a ‘crazy idea’.

Helen Jowett, speaking for Conwy Countryside Services, said her role is to oversee the work of the wardens and is currently working on the feasibility study. She had brought leaflets for anyone to take which explained the facts about the grazing and said they had not expected so many objections and that she was concerned about so much incorrect information. She said the local authority has a duty to maintain the grassland which has SSSI status but also has to balance its use by people. The feasibility study is looking at grazing one or two meadows with five ponies or donkeys per meadow for two months in the spring and four months summer/autumn. They will look at the cost of fencing, water, shelter and maintenance of the fencing and gates, as well as the management of the live stock and access for the public. Alun Jones said there are two aims, enjoyment for the public and the maintenance of the SSSI. He referred to there having been grazing in the 1950’s but this was disputed by several members of the audience, and went on to say that he didn’t see why it would cause a problem. Hilary Kehoe explained that she facilitates grazing and works with farmers and conservation bodies to provide animals for various sites in the area, Anglesey being one of the most recent.

General Discussion:

Gill Harvey to start the discussions said that at the moment Bryn Euryn has open access and that fencing would spoil the area. There are animal welfare as well as public health and safety issues to be considered.

A member of the audience asked who has a vote on the MAG committee, and it was answered that the councillors as well as outside bodies vote. Cllr Merfyn Thomas said there is so much pressure on open space that the Bryn should not be fenced. Although the council is facing a £5 million budget cut back per annum in the next few years. The fencing would cost £28,000 upwards, an 8 year payback period bearing in mind the £4,000 current cost of cutting the area.

Iris Roberts, a local teacher, said the scouts and children all use the site to play and that fencing would restrict this as livestock would pose a risk.

It was pointed out that vandals already use saws to cut down trees and that both fencing and livestock would be at risk.

The warden was asked what evidence he had of grazing in recent years and confirmed he didn’t have any but that aerial photos from the 1950’s highlighted the extent of current scrub encroachment on the meadow grassland.

Cllr David Roberts said there needs to be more diversity, not just dog owners. The area needs to be opened up to ramblers, schools, colleges and to allow children to see the animals. Responding, Sharon Davies said the Bryn is regularly used at present by all these organisations, and that the scouts had expressed concerns about the plan to introduce grazing as it may stop them using it. She added that animals can be seen at numerous areas elsewhere.

Charles Cubbin said the ponies or donkeys would not be safe due to the vandals and large number of dogs. The very loud burglar alarm on the cottage which recently sounded could cause livestock to charge the fences in terror. Also the restricted area would prevent ponies moving out of the way of any trouble, adding that the warden is not available at weekends, which is when the trouble usually occurs. He went on the say that he has a booklet describing the grassland in the 1950's when it managed itself.

PC Ward-Davies said the police are aware of the anti social problems on the Bryn and has seen the fires, but has not seen any evidence of needles behind the ruins. He urged people to report any sightings of problems as their statistics are based on calls received. A member of the audience said they had made calls but had had no response. It was noted that the police have concerns for the safety of the animals and who would be responsible for them.

David Jones MP was asked, as a lawyer, who would be responsible for the ponies and liable should a member of the public be kicked, and also regarding the droppings which could pose a risk of tetanus. It was also questioned who would provide the public liability insurance. David Jones replied that the simple solution is not to place livestock there and to listen to what the people say.

A member of the audience described himself as a responsible dog owner and said he was concerned over the fencing proposals, as there are few areas available for dogs to run free especially as the council are reducing them all the time. He added that animals would be a risk to dogs and prevent them from getting proper exercise while still being under control.

When questioned as to whether stock holders had been approached to see if there was any interest, Helen Jowett said they hadn’t, while Alun Jones said there had been some interest from a donkey owner. In response to the question as to how much the feasibility study was costing, the reply was, only time, council man hours. There were concerns by many that this was still a waste of time and money. The warden asked for people to be open minded.

Cllr Jennifer Geddes, from the audience, said wild ponies would stay away from people and were widely used in conservation as a means for controlling Green Oak and other scrub species. She then added that safety must come first.

The issue of ragwort was discussed. Horse owners stressed the danger to livestock as it damages the liver and ultimately causes death. The council response was that the ponies wouldn’t eat it but that the responsibility for its removal would rest with the grazier. It was pointed out that ragwort is a valuable source of nectar for insects including several endangered species, and that due to it being away from agricultural land it is in an ideal position. Concerns were raised about the cutting back of the meadow while the plants were still flowering and trees felled at a time when birds are nesting. The warden replied that the mowing takes place after the peak flowering period and is needed for scrub control. When asked why there is a need to control it, he relied, that some is acceptable but that too much encroaches on the rare grassland. Many people pointed out that the grassland hadn’t been grazed prior to the introduction of cutting in recent years, yet had still survived. The warden said their main priority is the upper meadow. When asked about how much the council would charge a grazier, Helen Jowett responded that a license would be issued but that they could not charge as there is a restriction over business use.

There was general concern expressed over the MAG meetings especially regarding the recent informal meeting held on site with no minutes when the feasibility study was agreed with a majority vote. Questions were asked as to lack of scrutiny, access of minutes and why nothing is available on the website. It was commented on as being undemocratic to vote on such an important issue at an informal meeting and secretive. Helen Jowett said past minutes were available from her on request.

Richard Raynor asked why councillors don’t reply to letters sent by constituents. Cllr David Roberts replied that he had a condition which meant he couldn’t view computer screens, and left the meeting, despite Mr Raynor trying to assure him that he hadn’t written to him.

Concerns were raised regarding the safety of the access road which was viewed as currently in poor condition. In response to questions it was ascertained that there are no quotes for fencing or water as yet, but that bowsers may be used. The feasibility study is to be completed by November as the Countryside staff have other priorities.

Donald Gorst pointed out that ladies use the Bryn with their dogs and meet with others to socialise. Fencing and livestock would deter many from enjoying this beneficial pastime.

Dr Keith Owen apologised for leaving the meeting early and reminded the officials of the huge amount of goodwill they currently have with volunteers clearing litter and notifying them and the police of problems. He said the council should work with the public to address valid concerns or risk the loss of this goodwill.

David Jones MP apologised for leaving early as he had another meeting to attend. He went on the say that the MAG members need to understand that the fencing and livestock proposals are deeply unpopular when they come to vote on the issue.

A motion to reject the grazing proposal was carried with a unanimous vote.

Darren Millar AM apologised for his late arrival due to a prior commitment. He questioned why the council was still continuing with the feasibility study with so many public objections and would they consult with the public and other stakeholders. Any decision would need to be democratic as even with grants from the CCW to help with costs, it would still ultimately be the people who will pay. He added we should resist this threat to an open public space especially as Bryn Euryn is the jewel in the crown of the area.

Bryn Euryn Users Association

Gill Harvey asked that the Association be formalised in order for the users to be represented on the MAG committee. The constitution of the new association was read by Susan Davies. This was accepted by a unanimous vote. The committee members were proposed, seconded and elected by a show of hands as listed above.

After a brief discussion it was voted that funds should be raised by subscription and that donations would be welcome to help meet running costs.

Gill Harvey thanked all guests and members of the audience for attending and closed the meeting.

Following the meeting, the police were given cans and two saws used by vandals the previous two weeks on the Bryn. They hoped they would be able to retrieve finger print evidence.

The date of the next meeting is yet to be confirmed.

Feasibility Report

2009-10-02T22:36:00.004+01:00

The council have advised a copy of the feasibility report will be given to us a week before the vote by the Management Advisory Group.

Would people like to see it publish here?

Is there any benefit holding a meeting to discuss findings? Is there time?

Should the council perhaps be publishing the report and carrying out public consultation themselves before taking any vote? Perhaps seeing the overwhelming objections to their plans expressed at the recent meeting they already know what most people think, in which case why are they bothering?

Date Set for Next Management Advisory Group Meeting

2009-09-25T22:35:00.002+01:00

The Council have advised the next meeting of Bryn Euryn LNR Management Advisory Group to discuss feasibility study will be Monday 23rd November 2009

Hopefully the feasibility report will be made available for the public to review and comment on before this vital decision is made - we will let you know!

Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve

2009-09-18T21:30:00.002+01:00

At the recent Bryn Euryn User Assoication there was outrage at the councils claims as to when, if ever, the Bryn was last grazed. Supporters present told the warden that there had been no grazing for 60 to 80 years - the council admitted they had no evidence to proven when it was last grazed so why do they keep on saying the same old thing?

Lets hope this money is spent on paths as stated rather than the grazing proposals.

From the council's 'Buttetin' delivered to all houses and on their website http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?cat=143&doc=24879&Language=1

Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve in Rhos on Sea, is managed by the Council’s Countryside and Rights of Way Service.

Full of history and archaeological significance and enjoyed by many local people, Bryn Euryn is a designated Site of Special Scientific Interest for the wild flowers that grow on its limestone grasslands. As part of the Tidy Towns Initiative, Conwy Council has allocated £5,000 to improve some of the footpaths on the site including the summit trail, the contour trail around the Bryn and paths coming from Dinerth Road onto the hill. Improvements to steps, surfacing and waymarking are also planned and a new interpretation panel in the car park with more information on the various trails. The designated grassland on Bryn Euryn is currently threatened by the encroachment of trees and scrub. When mechanical mowing and raking started in 1996 the site had scrubbed-over significantly because there had been no grazing since at least the 1950s. Mowing and raking has improved the grassland for flowers such as the cowslips and orchids, which many walkers on the Bryn are now able to enjoy.

The Council is now looking into the feasibility of reintroducing grazing livestock as a more natural and sustainable way of maintaining the grassland. A number of issues are being considered,such as cost, animal welfare, fencing/gates and public opinion.

If you have any questions about these projects please contact the Warden, Alun Jones, by email alun.rhys.jones@conwy.gov.uk or telephone (01492) 575200

AN MP has blasted “quangocrats”

2009-09-09T23:25:00.002+01:00

From this weeks North Wales Pioneer
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/78407/mp-says-scrap-bryn-euryn-fencing-plans.aspx

MP says scrap Bryn Euryn fencing plans
Published date: 09 September 2009 Published by: Anna Glover

MP has blasted “quangocrats” who plan to fence off a popular nature reserve.
Campaigning walkers have battled to stop plans to introduce livestock to Bryn Euryn, Rhos-on-Sea. In June the Pioneer reported how the management committee of the historic beauty spot, discussed protecting a rare form of grass by creating two paddocks with sheep, ponies or donkeys.

This week 200 protestors gathered at Colwyn Bay Cricket Club during a meeting of the Bryn Euryn Users’ Association. Councillors, politicians and council officials also attended.

Speaking at the meeting, David Jones, MP for Clwyd West, said: “Bryn Euryn is tremendously popular with local people, who have a huge amount of enjoyment from using it as a free, safe and pleasant place to take exercise and walk their dogs. Almost inevitably, when people are enjoying something, there will be a quangocrat telling them that they shouldn’t be doing it, which appears to be the case here.

“The strength of feeling shown at this meeting should be enough to convince the Bryn Euryn committee that, whilst local people fully support the proper management of the reserve, they are strongly opposed to any moves that would result in any part of it being fenced off, or livestock put on it.”

Some areas of Bryn Euryn attained Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) status, due to the rare limestone grass. Wardens at the site claim the grass was originally maintained by livestock, which would be more environmentally friendly in the long run.

Darren Millar, AM for Clwyd West, said: “There are precious few open spaces as it is in our locality, and many are under threat from proposals in the Conwy Local Development Plan. Bryn Euryn is a jewel in the crown of Rhos-on-Sea which we cannot afford to lose access to. These plans should be scrapped.”

Bryn Euryn User Association meeting

2009-09-09T02:45:00.003+01:00

Many thanks to all those who took the time to attend the first meeting of the new Bryn Euryn User Association, minutes will be posted shortly.

As well as the local MP and AM we would like to thank the local councillors who made the effort to attend and give us their thoughts on the proposals. The council Countryside staff who attended and made the effort to put forward their plans should be thanked for attending and doing their best to explain proposals and answer the numerous questions.

Council must scrap Nature Reserve grazing plans

2009-09-09T02:37:00.002+01:00

Many thanks to Clwyd West AM Darren Millar for attending the first meeting of the Bryn Euryn User Association, his contributions were well received and captured the mood of the majority of those present

From his blogsite http://www.darrenmillaram.com/index.php?sectionid=3&pagenumber=436

Clwyd West AM Darren Millar has called for controversial plans to introduce grazing on a popular nature reserve in his constituency to be scrapped.
Residents in Rhos-on-Sea have been incensed by local authority proposals which could see large parts of the Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve fenced off and put to grazing.

Speaking at a packed public meeting in Rhos last night, Darren Millar said, ‘There is a huge democratic deficit here.

‘These grazing proposals are clearly unacceptable to the vast majority of local people and yet the council is determined to explore these proposals further.

‘As well as being a nature reserve, Bryn Euryn is an important community facility which is enjoyed by large numbers of residents and visitors to the area. It should be accessible to all, including responsible dog owners who use it to exercise their pets.

‘The council must listen to the views of local people and manage the reserve in a way which respects the current usage and allows the people to continue to enjoy it for many years to come.

‘There are precious few open spaces as it is in our locality, and many are under threat from proposals in the Conwy Local Development Plan. Bryn Euryn is a jewel in the crown of Rhos-on-Sea which we cannot afford to lose access to. These plans should be scrapped.’

Bryn Euryn – a positive development

2009-09-09T02:20:00.003+01:00

From David Jones' blogsite http://davidjonesblog.com/2009/09/07/a-positive-development/

To Rhos on Sea this evening, and the inaugural meeting of the Bryn Euryn Users’ Association.
The assembly room at the cricket club was packed with local residents and also attended by local councillors and council officials, who can have been left in no doubt whatever that the proposal to fence off the Bryn and place livestock on it was deeply unwelcome.

The Association is a tremendously positive development for the future of Bryn Euryn; I am very optimistic that the management committee’s misguided proposal will soon be kicked into touch.

Many thanks to David for attending, his excellent contributions were very welcome.

Information issued by Conwy Countryside and Rights of Way Service

2009-09-09T02:15:00.004+01:00

In the interest of providing balanced information please see below the handout the Council prepared for the first meeting of the Bryn Euryn User Association.

What's being looked into at Bryn Euryn and why?

Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve (LNR) is also designated as a site of special scientific interest (SSSI) due to its species rich calcareous grassland which supports a range of special flora and fauna. As such the local authority has a duty to manage this site to best maintain the grasslands whilst also managing the site for public enjoyment.

The reason for looking into the feasibility of introducing grazing to maintain the grassland is that this would reduce the invasion of 'improved' species such as ryegrass and prevent scrub encroachment. The action of grazing animals would be different from just cutting and raking off (which is the current management practice at this site), it would help encourage species diversity and the dung provides food for up to 16 different types of insect.

Types of grazing system being investigated as part of the feasibility study

Possibly five ponies/donkeys grazing in each of one or possibly two meadow areas, each for possibly two months in the spring and possibly a further four months in the late summer/early autumn.

The feasibility study will consider how this works at other sites with public access.
Cost and types of fencing for livestock plus longterm maintenance of this will need to be considered as part of the study. For example, the design of the fencing and gates could be laid out to avoid pinch points and corners where contact between people and ponies could occur. Gates could be suitable for access for the less able and pushchairs where appropriate.

Animal welfare to be considered as part of the feasibility study

A grazier would have overall responsibility for the welfare of any livestock. On some other sites volunteer lookers, trained through PONT on one or two day courses, have helped to support the grazier by checking the animals when they are walking in the area.

The feasibility of a water supply and shelter will need to be considered. A bowser may be a suitable water supply. Again this would need to be investigated.

Grazing policies are prepared for public sites with grazing. Examples from other sites are available.

Public access and dogs to be considered as part of the feasibility study

As a Local Nature Reserve it is recognised that this is an important area for the local community and general public for recreation. The feasibility study will have to be aware of this. There should ideally be no reduction in access for people or dogs. On some other sites it has been found that ponies avoid the more public areas in the day and graze them when they are quiet.

Dogs however should always be under control on sites with public access even if they are not on a lead. PONT is able to fund training for dog owners to help them to teach their dogs to behave with livestock. Skills learned through these courses can be useful when walking anywhere in the countryside.

The feasibility study will need to take into consideration the use of the site by the local community alongside the needs of the grasslands in terms of maintaining the botanical interest of the site. It will also need to consider issues such as anti social behaviour at the site, cost implications of management regimes, availability of graziers, health and safety.... alongside much more.

At present no decision has been made to introduce grazing livestock to Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve, the feasibility of this is being investigated.

Case studies of other sites are available on request from Hilary Kehoe.
Anglesey Grazing Animals Partnership
Ynys Mon Local Grazing Scheme Coordinator
NWWT Office,
376 High Street,
Bangor.
Gwynedd.
LL57 1YE

Phone: 07726358228
E-mail: agap@wildlifetrustswales.orq
Website: agap-ynysmon.co.uk

If you have further queries specific to Bryn Euryn LNR please contact the staff at

Conwy Countryside and Rights of Way Service:

Alun Jones alun.rhys.jones@conwy.gov.uk

Helen Jowett helen.jowett@conwy.gov.uk

Tom Gravett tom.gravett@conwy.gov.uk

The Future of Bryn Euryn

2009-08-23T15:53:00.005+01:00

We have sent out an invitation to everyone via email to an open meeting to be held in September. It is as follows:

The Future of Bryn Euryn?
Have your say before it’s too late

The Council has decided to go ahead with a feasibility study into fencing off large areas for animals to graze, despite huge public reaction against the idea.

As a result the ‘Bryn Euryn Users Association’ (BEUA) has been formed by people who love Bryn Euryn, to preserve and protect it as it is and have a voice on matters concerning the area.

We would urge everyone who cares about Bryn Euryn, to attend a

Public Open Meeting

Monday 7th September 7.30pm

Colwyn Bay County Cricket Club
Penrhyn Avenue, Rhos-on-sea

All members of the public, Council and Assembly representatives and bodies connected with the management of Bryn Euryn are invited and will have the opportunity to have their say.

We look forward to seeing you there.

Refreshments will be available.

For further information contact 07955 202083 or
07976 829202

A copy of the new Associations Constitution was also attached and nominations for officers requested by 5th September. All are welcome.

CONSTITUTION

1. NAME

BRYN EURYN USERS ASSOCIATION

2. Objectives

The objectives of the Associations will be:

· To have a voice on all Council matters pertaining to Bryn Euryn
· To protect the reserve for the sole benefit of people and wildlife
· To preserve and protect the natural habitats on Bryn Euryn
· To encourage responsible dog ownership
· To prevent Bryn Euryn becoming over managed or developed
· To share information with the public relating to Bryn Euryn
· To actively encourage community spirit and social interaction
.
3. Membership

Membership shall be open to all users of Bryn Euryn and interested parties, but voting and Committee representation will be limited to 18yrs and over.

The Association will be a non profit making organisation. Any membership subscription will be decided at the Annual General Meeting.

4. Officers of the Association

The officers of the Association will be:

o Chairman
o Vice Chairman
o Treasurer
o Secretary
o Publicity/Fund Raising Officer (if no subscriptions)
o Social Secretary

Officers will be elected annually at the Annual General Meeting.
All officers will retire each year but will be eligible for re-appointment.

5. Committee

All business will be managed through the Association Committee.

The quorum required for business to be agreed at Association Committee meetings will be four.
The member of the Committee nominated to represent the Association on the Conwy Council Bryn Euryn Management Advisory Group (MAG) will voice the views of the membership, and vote accordingly.

No member of the Conwy Council Bryn Euryn Management Advisory Group (MAG) can also act as representative of the Association.

6. Finance

All Association monies will be banked in accounts held in the name of the association.

The Treasurer will be responsible for the management of the finances of the association.

The financial year of the Association will end on 31st August, and the accounts audited by either a member of the Committee or Association with a suitable financial background.

The audited statement of annual accounts will be presented by the Treasurer at the Annual General Meeting.

Any cheques drawn against Association funds should hold the signatures of the Treasurer plus one other officer.

7. Annual General meetings

Notice of Annual General Meetings will be given by the Association Secretary. Not less than 14 clear days notice to be given to all members.

The AGM will receive a report from officers of the Association Committee and a statement of the audited accounts.

Nominations for officers of the Association Committee will be sent to the Secretary prior to the AGM.

Elections of officers are to take place at the AGM.

All eligible members have the right to vote at the AGM.

8. Amendments to the constitution

The constitution will only be changed through agreement by majority vote at an AGM.

9. Declaration

Bryn Euryn Users Association hereby adopts and accepts this constitution as a current operating guide regulating the actions of members.

SIGNED: DATE:

NAME:

POSITION: Association Chair

SIGNED: DATE:

NAME:

POSITION: Association Secretary

Drink & Drug Problems on the Bryn

2009-08-20T20:27:00.002+01:00

From the front page of this weeks North Wales Weekly News.

Why is the Council's Managment group more interested in grass than sorting out the really problems?

Can they really think livestock will be safe up there with all that is happening?

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2009/08/20/drinkers-and-drug-addicts-target-rhos-on-sea-nature-reserve-55243-24482547/

Drinkers and drug addicts target Rhos-on-Sea nature reserve
Aug 20 2009

Bryn Euryn
DRINKERS and drug addicts are using a historic tourist attraction to hold hedonistic parties leaving the site in an unsightly mess.
The 13th century manor house at Llys Euryn at the Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve in Rhos-on-Sea is strewn with empty beer cans, cigarette packets, condoms and broken lager and vodka bottles.
The Weekly News also found large boxes of unopened lager stashed in bushes nearby, Also at the site are the remains of small fires and tin foil, often found where hard drugs such as heroin has been prepared. Walkers also reported finding needles at the site.
Set off Tan-y-Bryn Road, the secluded ruins are a popular walking spot for hikers and dog owners who say the otherwise tranquil spot has been ruined by the litter.
Michael Barratt of Oak Drive in Colwyn Bay often walks his two dogs at Bryn Euryn and was disgusted by the mess.
"It is a disgrace, I’ve noticed people have been building fires and leaving cans and bottles," he said.
"It is a beautiful place – the mess is disgusting as it is one of the few nice places you can go. It spoils it for everybody else as the ruins are a nice feature."
Ann Davies from Rhos-on-Sea was walking her two dogs Merlin and Harvey and blamed the mess on youngsters using the site to drink.
"There is a lot going on up here with the kids. We see cans and fires up here. If they come up here they should clean up after themselves," she said.
Merfyn Jones, 79, from Colwyn Bay was walking with his dogs and said discarded hypodermic needles posed a danger to walkers using the site.
"There is often a mess here. My mate has been up there and found needles and all sorts of things," he said.
"It is an untidy mess. Tourists and people from abroad come and that is the site that meets them. They should have more respect for the area, but it is a sign of the times."
Bryn Euryn resident Wendy Kitson added: "Most of the time it is cans and cigarette packets. It concerns us because of the wildlife but also because of the children. I have children who often go blackberry picking and there are broken bottles. It is quite sad."
As a Grade II listed building the ruins at Llys Euryn date back to the mid-13th century when it is believed a timber medieval hall stood which was occupied by the tribal leader Ednyfed Fychan, who served Llywelyn the Great and was the ancestor of Owen Tudor.
This original building was probably burnt in 1409 during the Glyndwr revolt and rebuilt shortly afterwards as a late medieval fortified home to the Conwy family until 1629 when it was sold to Sir Peter Mutton.
In the late 1990s the building was subject to a conservation project when stone chippings were used to prevent vegetation and a sign about the site’s history was erected.
A spokeswoman for Conwy County Council, which is responsible for the site, commented: "This information has been forwarded to the Environment Service and Countryside Service.
"We can confirm over the last three months we have not received any reports or complaints of sharps or drug paraphernalia at this location. We would ask members of the public to report any such problem hotspots to the Environment Service."
Contact Conwy’s Environment Service on 01492 575337.

More Mindless Vandalism (not the council plans this time)

2009-08-16T14:08:00.007+01:00

The yobs have been at it again, an email has been sent by a supporter to the Police and copied to the council, let's hope they are considering all the problems with yobs when they decide whether to introduce grazing, we dread to think of the harm they could do to animals or the damage they will do to the fencing.

One good thing that has come out of the councils silly plans is the Bryn Users Association, hopefully by working with the Police and council something can be done to stop the yobs.

Dear Cheryl,

I believe Alun Jones has been in touch with you previously about fires at the Bryn. Last night(Saturday), in the lower meadow next to the black seat there was another party with many Strongbow cans about and branches SAWN from the trees in the area to make a fire, they even took a saw with them, which they left behind and I now have. It was discovered early Sunday morning by a Bryn Users Association walker, who contacted me and told me he had removed the cans and hidden the saw in the bushes.I went up with my camera and took the attached pictures. The culprits obviously came down via Aled Drive, as there were Strongbow cans in the street, and a tree branch cut down on the path from Aled Drive to the Bryn.

Some of the branches cut down were from healthy trees which obviously would not burn. This has become a regular occurrence every summer now, but unfortunately we only discover the carnage next day. About 2/3 years ago the same thing happened, but on that occasion they sawed down trees and bushes in Aled Drive gardens in the night on the way down, on that occasion I went around with PC Nigel McLaughlin assessing the damage.We keep stressing to the Council the danger of following up their plans to put fencing and animals in the very same area, to no avail so far, had there been fencing in the area I am sure they would have had a lovely bonfire, not to mention the danger and terror to the animals, as the last group that lit fires up there had Bull-terrier type dogs with them.If I can be of assistance to you or you want the saw please contact me.

Regards

How Much Will It Cost Us?

2009-08-16T13:55:00.002+01:00

How much will it cost, a basic thing anyone needs to know before they commit to do something or make a decision, figures have been quoted in emails between the council and CCW but for some reason they aren't being given in response to our request: -

Further to the proposals by the Countryside Department to change public open space into grazing land; this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

Please send me the following information: -

Full details of proposals by the Countryside department to introduce grazing to Bryn Euryn.
To include details of the extent of proposed grazing.
Estimated cost of works required to create grazing areas.
Estimated net annual income.

I would like the above information to be provided to me in electronic format if available otherwise paper

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

The response: -

Thank you for your enquiry below.
In response to question 1 it is advised that there is no current proposal to introduce grazing onto Bryn Euryn.
The Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve Management Advisory Group has asked that officers look at, and report back on, the feasibility
of introducing such grazing. That exercise has not yet been completed (anticipated completion in October 2009).
There is no information currently held or available for questions 2,3 & 4 —
these aspects are however to be considered and will form
part of the feasibility exercise when completed.

If for whatever reason you are unhappy with the response please contact us direct by e-mail or by post addressed to Conwy County
Borough Council, Information Regulations Unit, Bodlondeb, Conwy ,
LL32 8DU .
Uned Reoliadau Gwybodaeth/lnformation Regulations Unit
Cyngor Bwrdeistef Sirol CON WY County Borough Council
E-Bost / E-Mail: info-regs.unit@conwy.gov.uk

Loss of Play Area - Info Request

2009-08-16T13:49:00.002+01:00

Supporters with children are concerned were their kids will be able to play if the council bring in grazing animals so we asked if they had consulted the various associations (thank you Google). Once again it seems the work will be done once they have made the decision to proceed - isn't the feasibility study supposed to be about considering all the problems before a decision is made?

Further to the proposals by the Countryside Department to change public open space into grazing land; this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

With regards to the grassed open spaces on Bryn Euryn currently used by children as a play area, please send me confirmation that the following bodies will be consulted before any decision is made to change the open space into grazing land: -

· The Sports Council for Wales
· The National Playing Fields Association
· The Land, Access and Recreation Association
· Environment Agency
· Countryside Council for Wales

I would like the above information to be provided to me in electronic format if available otherwise paper

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

Council response: -

Further to your request received 29/7/2009 it is advised that there is no firm proposal to change
public open space into grazing land. Council officers are only looking at the feasibility of
introducing grazing.
There is no information currently held regarding who may be consulted, or about the consultation
process. This will be a matter for consideration by the Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve
Management Advisory Group when it meets to consider the outcome of the feasibility exercise.
If for whatever reason you are unhappy with the response please contact us direct by
e-mail at info-reqs.unit(E0conwy,qov uk or by post addressed to Conwy County Borough Counci l.
Information Regulations Unit, Bodlondeb, Conwy, LL32 8DU

Management Advisory Group - Info Request

2009-08-16T13:43:00.003+01:00

We wanted to know more about the 'Management Advisory Group' so sent in the FOI request below: -

Further to the proposals by the Countryside Department to change public open space into grazing land; this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

Please send me the following information: -

· Terms of reference for the Bryn Euryn Management Advisory Group.
· Details of how members are appointed and how interested members of the public or associations can apply to join the group.
· Details of how often the group meets, date of next meeting, agenda and facilities for members of the public to attend?

I would like the above information to be provided to me in electronic format if available otherwise paper

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

Council response: -

Thank you for your enquiry below.
The terms of reference for the Bryn Euryn Management Advisory Group (MAG) are simply confined to
'overseeing the management of the Local Nature Reserve.'
The Management Advisory Group is made up of invited local councillors and representatives from the
Countryside Council for Wales and other organisations. It was decided at the last meeting to invite a
member of the Bryn Euryn Users Association to the next meeting. The MAG meetings are not public
meetings and therefore not open to the public. Local residents can make representations to their local
councillors.
The MAG meets twice a year; an informal meeting on site in the summer and a formal meeting in the
winter. The next meeting will be in October/November, to discuss the grazing feasibility report. The date
has not yet been decided.
If for whatever reason you are unhappy with the response please contact us direct by e-mail or by post
addressed to Conwy County Borough Council, Information Regulations Unit, Bodlondeb, Conwy LL32
8DU .
Uned Reoliadau Gwybodaeth/Information Regulations Unit
Cyngor Bwrdeistef Sirol CONWY County Borough Council
E-Bost / E-Mail: info-regs.unit@conwy.gov.uk

Heath & Safety Concerns

2009-08-16T13:35:00.003+01:00

Many of our supporters have real safety concerns about the plans to introduce grazing. We assumed that as part of the feasibilty study the council H&S department would investigate and make a decision, it seems this will only happen once they decide to go ahead with their plans!

Head of Health & Safety Department
Conwy County Borough Council
Bodlondeb
Conwy
LL32 8DU

Dear Sir/Madam,

Freedom of Information Request - Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve

Further to the proposals by the Countryside Department to change public open space into grazing land; this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

As you may be aware there have been a number of recent deaths associated with dog walkers using land grazed by livestock, see enclosed news articles. As the council intends to introduce livestock into an area heavily used by dog walkers, children and families please send me the following information: -

· Details of risk assessments that have been undertaken to determine if the risk to the public is acceptable. If such risk assessments have not already been undertaken please forward when they have been.
· Details of any resultant operational codes of practice and method statements to safeguard the public, especially children who currently play on the proposed grazing area.
· Detail of traffic risk assessments, the council intend the livestock to be moved to a from the public open space several times a year, the steep access track is narrow, unfenced and has large drops to the side. Being little used it currently has a lot of pedestrian use, practically by children, families with push chairs and mobility scooters. I trust you will agree it is vital that there are suitable and sufficient safe systems of work in place for the large vehicles which will be use to transport livestock.
· The council are also considering bring water for the livestock to site using bowsers, presumably these will heavy trailers to be towed up the steep track on a regular basis and therefore deserve their own specific risk assessment?

I would like the above information to be provided to me in electronic format if available otherwise paper

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

The council response: -

I am in receipt of your letter dated 29 July 2009 in respect of a Freedom of Information
request — Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve.

I have made enquiries with our Countryside Services Manager Tom Gravett and the
Project Officer Alun Jones who is responsible for this area with regard to the information
that you require.

I am reliably informed that notwithstanding the importance of the four points you raise
(existence of risk assessments) the status of the project is very much at an early stage.

Should the project be considered further, then a robust risk assessment will be
undertaken to identify the prevailing hazards. I thank you for taking the trouble to identify
the obvious ones.

Your request will be kept on file and in the event that the project materialises, then a full
Risk Assessment and associated Codes of Practice will be forwarded to you.

Thank you again for drawing our attention to the matter.

Yours Sincerely,

Disabled Access - Information Request

2009-08-16T13:24:00.002+01:00

Some of our supporters have mobility problems so the Freedom of Information request below is vital for them: -

Dear Sir/Madam,

Freedom Of Information Request - Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve

Further to the proposals by the Countryside Department to change public open space into grazing land; this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

I understand an ‘informal’ meeting of the Bryn Euryn Management Advisory Group was held on Monday 20th July, 2009 at which it was decided to proceed with a feasibility study to change public open space into grazing land.

Please send me the following information: -

· Confirmation that the needs and rights of users of Bryn Euryn with mobility issues were considered when the gate adjacent to Llys Euryn was erected. Previously there was no gate allowing the public open space to be readily accessed by users of mobility scooters.
Confirmation that the proposed new fencing and gates will comply with the following: -
The Disability Discrimination Act 1995
The Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, with specific reference to the requirement for local authorities, when authorising the erection of stiles, gates or other works on footpaths or bridleways to have regard to the needs of people with mobility problems.
That the design of any new gates will comply with BS8300 (2009).
I would like the above information to be provided to me in electronic format if available otherwise paper

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Council response below, we don't feel it really answers the questions fully and the information we have seen from the CCW says gates will be 'kissing gates', no use to people in mobility scooters: -

Thank you for your enquiry below.
1) The gate adjacent to Bryn Euryn cottage was installed about 10 years
ago in connection with woodland management works on the wider Local
Nature Reserve. The gate was installed primarily to prevent any use of
Bryn Euryn by off-road motorcycles and other unauthorised vehicles.
Access by those with mobility issues was not specifically addressed at
the time, as it was considered that the wider topography and terrain
presented particular access difficulties. Subsequently however,
specific access requests have been addressed positively. The
specification of the gate will be reviewed as part of the feasibility
exercise currently being undertaken in respect of the potential to
introduce grazing to Bryn Euryn.

2) There is no information on this, as yet, as there is no specific
proposal for new gates and fencing. However, these items are being
considered as part of the feasibility exercise referred to in 1 above.
The specification of any gates is to be addressed within the exercise,
and due regard would be given to relevant legislation and standards.

If for whatever reason you are unhappy with the response please contact
us direct by e-mail or by post addressed to Conwy County Borough
Council, Information Regulations Unit, Bodlondeb, Conwy, LL32 8DU.
Uned Reoliadau Gwybodaeth/Information Regulations Unit
Cyngor Bwrdeistef Sirol CONWY County Borough Council
E-Bost / E-Mail: info-regs.unit@conwy.gov.uk

More No Freedom of Information

2009-08-16T13:10:00.002+01:00

Supports of Save Our Bryn have sent off a few Freedom of Information (FOI) requests over the last few weeks. In part it was an attempt to help the council with their feasibility study as we were asking reasonable questions that anyone doing a meaningful study would have considered.

I am sorry to report that all the replies so far have been hardly worth the effort and not really in the spirit of the Freedom of Information Act. In contrast with the single FOI request we made to the Countryside Council for Wales (CCW) resulted in around 80 pages of very interesting information and 4 maps! Much of the information from the CCW is emails to and from the council so when we see the responses from the council we aren't that impressed.

David Jones, MP - Bryn Euryn update

2009-08-13T22:50:00.002+01:00

Save Our Bryn Supporters meet with David Jones, MP this afternoon. He was very helpful and supportive as usual for which we are very grateful.

Copied from his web site, http://davidjonesblog.com/2009/08/13/bryn-euryn-update/

Bryn Euryn update

Held a meeting this evening with users of Bryn Euryn.
The nature reserve management committee has now decided to commission a study into the feasibility of fencing off part of the Bryn for grazing. An aerial photograph illustrating the proposal shows that about a third or more of the site, including the two large open areas, would be fenced off, meaning that dogs would have to be kept on a leash for much of the time.
This is a miserable, killjoy proposal that threatens to curtail the enjoyment of hundreds of walkers. It richly deserves the opposition it has attracted.
The users are now forming an association, the first meeting of which will be on a date yet to be fixed in September. It will seek representation on the management committee, which is entirely proper.
The meeting will no doubt be advertised on the Save our Bryn website, so do please keep visiting it. I will be attending if available.

More anti-social behaviour at the Bryn on Saturday night

2009-08-09T23:32:00.003+01:00

More ASBO activity on the Bryn over the weekend. Details and the need for this regular problem to be considered in the feasibnilty study nicely summed up in a email to the Warden from a Save the Bryn Supporter copied to us: -

Dear Alun,

More anti-social behaviour at the Bryn on Saturday night, although we did not find out until early Sunday morning when walking and seeing the results. The hollow in the ground in front of the seat in the lower meadow is becoming a regular fireplace. Branches had been pulled off the trees again to light a fire, 24 cans of strong cider and glass was scattered about with other rubbish, including dog faeces close to the seat area. This has all been removed by myself and another 'Save our Bryn' supporter, but I attach photos which do not really capture the mess which we found. Five youths with two bull terrier- type dogs and carrier bags were seen walking in the direction of the Bryn by a local resident in the late evening, presumably they were the culprits, though fortunately this time they did not cause any local damage as far as I am aware, which often happens when they stagger home drunk in the night. As this is in the area for proposed grazing, I dread to think what effect they and their dogs would have had on ponies at night and probably in the dark, and I am sure any fencing in the area would have made welcome firewood and led to an even larger fire, causing animals to panic and injure themselves. The Bryn is a totally different area at night, especially but not only at weekends, as any local residents will tell you, we dread the arrival of October when fireworks go on sale, when we get rockets etc., being let off at all hours of the night. There is no point calling the police, as it is a huge area to police in the dark at night on foot. I hope the feasability study that is being carried out, presumably in conjunction with yourselves, will bear this in mind, as walking around the Bryn during the day is a completely different experience. I would never leave any animal of mine to the mercy of the characters that use the Bryn at night, especially as we would know nothing until finding the results next morning. Experts and others walking the area during the day would know nothing of this. I hope I am not in a position in a year or so after a tragedy has taken place to say that we warned you. I hope you will take these comments as constructive and bear them in mind when conducting the study.

Regards

No Freedom of Information!

2009-08-07T23:56:00.002+01:00

A supporter made a freedom of information request as shown below: -

Further to the proposals by the Countryside Department to use part of Bryn Euryn for grazing, I am requesting under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, to know:

The identity of all councillors as well as any other organisations who have voted on this subject.
Exactly which way each named councillor and (if applicable) non elected representative has voted.

The responce was disappointing to say the least: -

There was an informal meeting on 20th July 2009 of the Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve Management Advisory Group (MAG), and no formal notes / minutes are made of such informal meetings. There is, however, a completed attendance register for this meeting and the following members of the MAG were recorded as being present:

Cllr D Roberts ( Conwy County Borough Council)
Cllr M Thomas ( Conwy County Borough Council)
Cllr P Edwards ( Conwy County Borough Council)
Cllr R Parry ( Conwy County Borough Council)
Cllr P Richards ( Colwyn Bay Town Council)
Mr K Clarke ( Colwyn Bay Civic Society)
Dr J Osley (Countryside Council for Wales )
Mr I Halfpenney (Cadw)

A vote was taken as to whether or not to complete the feasibility exercise being undertaken by staff of Conwy County Borough Council’s Countryside and Rights of Way Service. No record was made of which members of the MAG voted, nor of which way individual members voted. The vote was recorded as four to three in favour of completing the feasibility exercise. In view of the concern expressed by some parts of the local community, it was also agreed to invite an appropriate community representative to the next meeting of the MAG at which the results of the feasibility exercise will be considered.

So of the seven people who voted on such an important issue the council can't remember! And they call this Management?

What type of wildlife are they managing?

2009-08-01T23:15:00.002+01:00

A good point which was raised by a supporter recently, since the council started 'managing' the Bryn has anyone noticed a reduction in wildlife? Is all the grass cutting to blame?

Brynle Williams (Assembly Member)

2009-07-30T23:11:00.002+01:00

Please see below an email to Brynle Williams AM and his reply. As you may or may not know as well as being an AM he is a farmer with particular interest and experience with ponies, as such he knows what he is taking about and we are grateful for his reply.

From: Williams, Brynle (Assembly Member) Brynle.Williams@wales.gov.uk
Subject: RE: Pony grazing on Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve
Date: Thursday, 30 July, 2009, 2:57 PM

Dear ??????

Thank you for your email sent yesterday regarding the above. I am in full support of your views. I have already spoken to David Jones MP to ensure he is aware of this matter.

It is my intention to send a letter agreeing with your concerns to Conwy Countryside Services and relaying my view that it is not a good idea to introduce ponies or donkeys onto this open area that is presently enjoyed by local residents.

I shall forward a copy of my correspondence to you for information. I hope this course of action is agreeable to you at this stage. Please do not hesitate to contact me further should you feel I can be of further assistance on this issue, or indeed any other matter.

Kind regards

Brynle

From: ????????
Sent: 29 July 2009 10:50
To: Williams, Brynle (Assembly Member)
Subject: Pony grazing on Bryn Euryn Nature Reserve

Dear Mr Williams
I am writing to you both as AM and also as a farmer with a keen interest in ponies. I don’t know whether you are aware that our local Conwy Countryside Services are looking into the feasibility of introducing grazing ponies or donkeys onto our local nature reserve Bryn Euryn, Rhos-on-Sea. This is an area which has been an open public space with no grazing since the 1930’s and is widely used by the residents for exercising their children and dogs, and which is crisscrossed with footpaths. Our local MP, David Jones has been very supportive as have some of our local councillors especially one who keeps his own horses and ponies. However, in a truly bullish manner, the Bryn Euryn Management Committee have seen fit to proceed with a feasibility study at council tax payers expense despite the local outcry for common sense to prevail.
One resident with 50yrs farming experience has made the following points and I would be very grateful for your thoughts on the matter.
1. Due to the size of the area and type of grass the ponies would need supplementary feed. (Countryside Council for Wales have stated by email that this would not be allowed as it would introduce nutrients which would adversely affect the rare grassland, they state the two areas at approx 2.25 ha each at 5 ponies or donkeys per enclosure. They suggest grazing early spring and again late summer, early autumn.)
2. Water provision would have to be tamperproof to prevent soiling or small children drowning.
3. Shelter would be needed to protect them from the elements and flies.
4. The large amounts of ragwort would need to be cleared.
5. The shallow soil would soon be eroded by hooves.
6. Well meaning members of the public are likely to feed titbits which could lead to the ponies becoming demanding.
7. As the area has a long history of late night drinking and fire lighting, what responsible owner would leave their animals vulnerable to mistreatment?
There is also the cost factor, estimated at £30,000 just for the fencing and kiss gates required, and these will have to be very impressive to keep out dogs from the surrounding woodland, the large number of which has ruled out grazing with sheep. No grazing fee could be charged as a covenant forbids any business use.
I would be very grateful if you could visit our blog site at http://save-our-bryn.blogspot.com to see the map, strength of public feeling and information we have found through the freedom of information act.
Yours sincerely

???????

Re Grazing on Bryn Euryn

2009-07-29T14:33:00.002+01:00

Congratulations to Mrs K Williams for her published letter in todays Pioneer. This letter has also been forwarded to us and has been sent to the local papers:

My husband and I have been farming for 50 years and have kept cattle, sheep and goats and horses, ponies and donkeys throughout this time, and know that keeping animals in the confined areas proposed, and with unlimited public access and very limited supervision would never work.
Due to the size of the proposed grazing areas and the type of grass, even 2 or 3 ponies would require supplementary feeding after about 3 weeks. The cost of eleven gates and all the fencing, (you can't just use barbed wire where the public has access) would run into many thousands of pounds. A water supply would need to be provided, and need to be tamperproof to prevent soiling or small children drowning. Shelter from the elements and flies would also need to be provided and the areas would need to be cleared of the large amount of ragwort which is extremely poisonous to ponies and donkeys.
The shallow soil would soon be exposed due to hooves cutting through the grass roots, leading to erosion and thus long term damage.
The animals would be open to abuse caused by mis-feeding by some well-meaning members of the public, ponies fed tit-bits often become very demanding or even aggressive and someone could be kicked or bitten.
As retired farmers we have experienced first hand all the above points and feel that no responsible animal owner would graze animals in such a location when there are plenty of more suitable places to rent for £10 -£15 per animal per week. Due to the strength of public feeling against the proposal any gates and fencing are likely to be demolished as fast as they are put up and the timber used on the many camp fires that regularly appear in the woods.
How would the emergency services get up to an injured person or animal? It would be very difficult to negotiate a kissing gate while carrying a stretcher.
A vast amount of public money should not be spent on a whim, which when investigated, is an obvious non starter, when the cry is, there is not enough money for police, schools and hospitals.

Thank you for this informed letter. Most of us have no practical experience of keeping livestock so a farmers views are very welcome.

Letter to the Paper

2009-07-27T21:17:00.002+01:00

We've been sent a copy of this excellent letter to the papers,

Bryn Euryn grazing feasibility study
Dear Editor

How incredible that the Bryn Euryn Management Advisory Group have taken the mulish decision to embark on a feasibility study re the grazing of livestock on the nature reserve! This, in the face of, maybe churlishly because of, the groundswell of public opinion, beggars belief. I am a regular dog-walker on the Bryn but at this point can detach myself from my personal disappointment at the prospect of curtailed enjoyment of this public amenity. This is now an issue that every local tax/rate-payer should be sitting up and taking notice of.

The MAG claim maintenance of the Bryn has cost £4K in the last year. If this amount includes the expense of scrub clearance at the summit and in the woodland, involving use of a quad bike for access, how can this be a cost that would be eradicated by the use of grazing livestock? If this cost is purely for the twice yearly cutting of the calcareous grassland areas being singled out, I would suggest they are probably paying too much and could get the job done considerably cheaper. Environmental groups actually endorse the use of wild rabbits for grazing of calcareous grassland (Source: BugLife).

Minutes of the MAG meeting held on 23 April this year refer to funding of £5K from Conwy Council’s Tidy Town budget, which together with further funding from the Countryside Service budget has been earmarked to upgrade footpaths and revamp way markers. It would be deplorable if any of this finance was diverted to fund the fencing and water piping that would be required for a grazing scheme. There would be no income generated from livestock owners as this public land cannot legally be used for business purpose. Indeed, the council may find themselves liable for any problems arising from animals being left unattended there, together with the cost of damage from increased usage to the unadopted road leading to the grassland.Anyone, with an ounce of common sense, can see that this scheme is not economically viable nor environmentally necessary. Why on earth are the MAG committee members now indulging themselves with the expense of this feasibility study? They might be better advised studying the feasibility of their re-election prospects!
Yours faithfully

Who voted for the feasibility study?

2009-07-26T16:18:00.003+01:00

A supporter has sent us a copy of a freedom of information request sent off to the council, we'll post the response here as soon as we get it! We understand a few more will be following as there are a lot of unhappy rate payers with questions to ask!

Keep up the good work.

To CCBC Freedom of Information Unit

Freedom of Information Request re Bryn Euryn

In order to allow members of the public to make informed choices as to which councillors they wish to vote in or out at the next elections, we need to know whether our elected representatives are actually representing us or perhaps pursuing their own agendas.

Therefore, further to the proposals by the Countryside Department to use part of Bryn Euryn for grazing, I am requesting under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, to know:

The identity of all councillors as well as any other organisations who have voted on this subject.
Exactly which way each named councillor and (if applicable) non elected representative has voted.

Would you please confirm receipt of this email by return and respond with a full answer as soon as possible.

Regards,

ASBO Yobs causing trouble on the Bryn again

2009-07-26T16:05:00.003+01:00

It seems there was a "party" last night on the Bryn, loads of empty beer cans there this morning together the remains of the bonfire they built, right by the bench in the the grass area the Warden wants to have livestock graze!

There are serious problems with ASBO activity on the Bryn, if the council madness ever happens the livestock will be at real risk from the yobs. The yobs are sure to love the timber fence posts for their bonfires.

Council Press Release on Web Site

2009-07-26T15:52:00.001+01:00

From http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?cat=142&doc=24582&Language=1

23/07/09 - Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve
remove display from date from under article title - dr 26/1/04 -->
Feasibility of introducing grazing livestock to Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve.
Following concerns raised by members of the public to the idea of Conwy County Borough Council investigating the feasibility of introducing grazing livestock to Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve (LNR) to manage the grasslands, a meeting was held on site this week of the Bryn Euryn LNR Management Advisory Group.
The members looked at the grassland areas and informally discussed the various issues around the idea of introducing grazing livestock to help manage the grasslands for which the site is designated a Site of Special Scientific Interest.
After thoughtful discussion, a vote followed, whereby it was agreed by 4 to 3, that Conwy County Borough Council Countryside Officers should continue to gather information towards assessing the feasibility of introducing grazing livestock to the Bryn, and that this feasibility study should be presented to a formal meeting of the group in October/November 2009. It was also agreed that a relevant representative of the 'Bryn Euryn Users Association' should be invited to attend this meeting.
The Committee is anxious to underline the fact that no decisions have yet been made, and that full consultation will take place with the public if a decision to continue is taken after the feasibility study has been completed.

Proposed Fence Line

2009-07-22T23:26:00.005+01:00

As detailed in a recent post http://save-our-bryn.blogspot.com/2009/07/plans-are-already-drawn-up.html a Freedom of Information request to the Countryside Council for Wales (CCW)produced a copy of a plan, dated 30th April 2009, showing fence line and gates. As CCW have told us the information is covered by copyright law we aren't allowed to post their plan on the Internet however, using a GoogleMap a supporter has overlaid the approximate fence line and proposed gate location.

The combined imagine is a very close representation of CCW map reference 31WHMoo1RA but not a copy, hopefully the huge public interest means this approach will be acceptable to all however if anyone isn't happy please drop us a line and we will remove.

Myself I was surprised just how much of the open meadow is to go, I thought perhaps a few small areas, little did I imagine they wanted it all!

Extracts from the CCW documents will be published once supporters have been through it all, again hopefully the public interest means this will be allowable.

Our aim is just to publish the facts as we get them to let the public make up their own mind.

Thanks to the local 'blog master' for his kind offer of assistance.

Another Dog Walker Killed By Cattle

2009-07-22T19:42:00.002+01:00

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/8163599.stm

Another sad example of why dogs and grazing won't work, lets hope the council H&S man is consulted as part of the 'feasibility study'?

Woman rescuing dog killed by cows

The tragedy was in a field in St Fagans, on the outskirts of Cardiff
A woman was trampled to death by cows when she tried to rescue her dog which ran into the herd, an inquest was told.
Anita Hinchey, 63, was walking her dog with a friend through a field owned by the Earl of Plymouth estate in Cardiff when her pet ran off.
Mrs Hinchey, of St Georges-super-Ely, Vale of Glamorgan, walked into the cows to find her pet but was trapped and trampled on, the Cardiff inquest heard.
She died of multiple injuries. The inquest was adjourned to a later date.
Mrs Hinchey and a friend had both been walking their dogs in the field in St Fagans, which neighbours the National History Museum, on Saturday.
Her friend became very nervous and put her dog on the lead.... Mrs Hinchley did not and, as she attempted to retrieve her dog, she was trapped amongst the cows
Det Con Rya Cowan
The field, which runs alongside the southbound carriageway of the A4232, does not have a designated footpath, the coroner was told.
Det Con Rya Cowan told the inquest: "Her friend became very nervous and put her dog on the lead.
"Mrs Hinchey did not and, as she attempted to retrieve her dog, she was trapped amongst the cows."
The inquest heard that Ms Hinchey was among the herd when she slipped and was trampled.
The emergency services were alerted to the incident at 1619 BST.
Det Con Cowan said paramedic Robert John was first at the scene and he pronounced Ms Hinchey dead.
Her body was later formally identified by her daughter, Kim Beard.
South Wales Police are investigating the incident but earlier this week said there were no suspicious circumstances.
Rare attacks
"This appears to be a tragic accident," said Ch Insp Alun Morgan.
"Our thoughts are with the lady's family, who have been informed."
The Health and Safety Executive has interviewed the farmer who owns the cattle.
In June, 49-year-old vet Liz Crowsley was trampled to death by a herd of cattle while walking the Pennine Way with her two dogs.
Two weeks earlier, former home secretary David Blunkett was left with a black eye and a cracked rib after being charged by a cow while on a walking holiday with his guide dog in the Peak District.
In both cases, the cows are thought to have been trying to drive off the dogs in order to protect calves.
Health and Safety Executive figures show that such attacks are rare. Excluding the recent deaths, 18 people have been killed and 481 injured by cows in the past eight years.

Council Notice following MAG 'Informal' meeting

2009-07-22T10:16:00.002+01:00

As you will read, the decision to continue with a feasibility study was only passed by one vote. We would like to know who was present and who voted to continue spending rate payers money on a proposal none of us want. At least they acknowledge our Association and our right to have a say on our local 'public open space'. If like us you would like a few questions answers, please use the forms below and use the Freedom of Information Act. The more people who ask questions the better to make public bodies more accountable to the people who pay the wages and provide the funding through rates and taxes.

Information Notice regarding the feasibility of introducing grazing livestock to Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve

Following the concern raised by members of the public to the idea of Conwy County Borough Council investigating the feasibility of introducing grazing livestock to Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve (LNR) to manage the grasslands, a meeting was held on site this week of the Bryn Euryn LNR Management Advisory Group.

The members looked at the grassland areas and informally discussed the various issues around the idea of introducing grazing livestock to help manage the grasslands for which the site is designated a Site of Special Scientific Interest.

After thoughtful discussion, a vote followed, whereby it was agreed by 4 to 3, that Conwy County Borough Council Countryside Officers should continue to gather information towards assessing the feasibility of introducing grazing livestock to the Bryn, and that this feasibility study should be presented to a formal meeting of the group in October/November 2009. It was also agreed that a relevant representative of the ‘Bryn Euryn Users Association’ should be invited to attend this meeting.
The Committee is anxious to underline the fact that no decisions have yet been made, and that full consultation will take place with the public if a decision to continue is taken after the feasibility study has been completed.

Conwy Countryside Service on behalf of Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve Management Advisory Group
22nd July 2009

If you really want to know what was said at the 'informal meeting'...

2009-07-21T21:46:00.002+01:00

...it would seem our friend the freedom of information request will be required to winkle out what was said.

I bet they've been sending lots of 'informal emails' to each other confirming what was said and actions to be done?

If anyone would like to help could you send off the following request and let us know what they give you? Thanks

Information Regulations Unit
Conwy County Borough Council
2nd Floor, Victoria Centre
Mostyn Street
Llandudno
LL30 2RP
Tel: 01492 574016 / 574024
Fax: 01492 574007
E-mail: info-regs.unit@conwy.gov.uk

Dear Sir/Madam,

Freedom Of Information Request - Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve

Further to the Bryn Euryn Management Advisory Group (MAG) for the above held on Monday 20th July, 2009, this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

Please send me the following information: -

Correspondence relating to the above meeting both before and after the meeting, to include letters, memos, faxes, emails and file notes.

I would like the above information to be provided to me in electronic format if available otherwise paper

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

Do You Want Minutes of the Latest Council Meeting...

2009-07-21T21:30:00.002+01:00

.... no chance, despite them taking the huge decision to ignore the wishes of the public they have decided to go ahead with a feasibility study during an 'informal' meeting.

According to the council an informal meeting doesn't have minutes! Given the huge local concern this is outrageous, just take a look at the email from the council below: -

Subject: RE: Bryn Euryn

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your email. The Management Advisory Group (MAG) for Bryn Euryn LNR has formal and informal meetings during the course of the year, the main difference being that at formal meetings minutes aretaken and that at informal meetings minutes are not taken. The on site meeting yesterday was an informal meeting, so there are no minutes, however to keep people informed, which is obviously important, an information update will be sent out shortly to the councils press officer and a copy of it will be posted on site at Bryn Euryn. This information update has been drafted and I am currently awaiting any amendments to this from all the MAG members before I can send this out.I have asked for any amendments to be sent back to me by the end of the day, so I am happy to send you the information notice via email once I have received confirmation from all members on its contents. If you require copies of minutes of previous formal meetings which are usually held once a year I am more than happy to send these to you. I will endeavour to send you a copy of the information update either at the end of the day or first thing in the morning, basically as soon as Iam in a position to be able to do so.

Many thanks Helen

The Plans Are Already Drawn Up!

2009-07-20T22:06:00.003+01:00

We've been told not to worry about the councils plan, its early days, nothing will happen without public consultation etc, etc.

Imagine our surprize to find, following a freedom of information request, that the Countryside Council for Wales (CCW) have already drawn up plans showing areas to be fenced, location of gates and details for livestock grazing!

The plans are dated 30th April 2009, we've love to post them on this site but the CCW have told us the information is covered by copyright law so we aren't allowed to post on the Internet!

So, if you would like to see the plans you'll have to write to them using our friend the freedom of information request, typical letter below, just add your address.

Countryside Council for Wales
Freedom of Information Unit
Maes y Ffynnon
Penrhosgarnedd
Bangor
Gwynedd
LL57 2DW

Sent Via Email to bangor@ccw.gov.uk

Dear Sir/Madam,

Freedom Of Information Request - Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve, Rhos on Sea, Colwyn Bay
SSSI_CODE: 71

Further to the recent front page article in the Colwyn Bay issue of the North Wales Pioneer (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/Rhos-on-Sea-Dog-Walkers.5372763.jp ), this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

Conwy County Borough Council advise that the Countryside Council for Wales have requested they look into the introduction of grazing to public open space on Bryn Euryn in an attempt encourage calcareous grasslands.

Please send me the following information: -

Copies of maps 31WHMoo1RA showing proposed route of fencing and location of gates

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

Freedom of Information Requests

2009-07-20T20:56:00.002+01:00

We are very lucky living where we do in a democratic county, Conwy Council have a great department for dealing with Freedom of Information requests. We have sent off a few requests already and supporters tell us after todays decision they are already planning more.

Details of the department are below, should you have any question you want to ask of the council in relation to this matter just send them a letter or email.

If you want to contact them you might want to use the format below: -

Information Regulations Unit
Conwy County Borough Council
2nd Floor, Victoria Centre
Mostyn Street
Llandudno
LL30 2RP
Tel: 01492 574016 / 574024
Fax: 01492 574007
E-mail: info-regs.unit@conwy.gov.uk

Dear Sir/Madam,

Freedom Of Information Request - Bryn Euryn Local Nature Reserve

Further to the Councils plans for grazing on Bryn Euryn this is a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000

Please send me the following information: -

List what you want here, best to ask for one or two little items at a time

I would like the above information to be provided to me in electronic format if available otherwise paper

I understand that under the act, I should be entitled to a response within 20 working days of your receipt of this email. I would be grateful if you could confirm in writing/email that you have received this request.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

No Surrender to Council Madness

2009-07-20T20:49:00.001+01:00

Sadly, as many of us feared, the council have chosen to take no notice of the wishes of the public. Despite 200 people signing up against proposal for introducing grazing to the Bryn, and not a single one in favour, the Management Advisory Group has today decided to waste rate payer’s money by carrying out a feasibility study.

We have asked how much it will cost to which the council responded ‘we are undertaking the initial feasibility exercise ourselves’. There will still be a cost to this and no doubt consultants will soon follow and thousands of pounds will be wasted!

We asked is they need planning permission for this change of use, the council responded ‘I am checking on the need for planning permission’, a shame this wasn’t done first!

We asked where their proof of the history of grazing, the council responded ‘The only feedback I’ve had on the grazing is someone who remembers sheep grazing there from 1930s to 1950s’, we’ve got people prepare to say there was no history of grazing in living memory!

The most disappointing thing is the management committee is made up of too many people without local interest. In fairness I am sure most of our local councillors will have considered the wishes of the local rate payers who elect them but as you can see from the list below what interest have the rest of these faceless individuals from Cardiff, Mold and Welshpool got in our Bryn?

Apparently the decision to go ahead with the feasibility study was a majority vote; well a Freedom of Information request will be going off to see which way they voted.

It seems clear the Management Advisory Group feel they are above the wishes of the local people, their wings need to be clipped and they need to be accountable to the Council scrutiny process and the rate payers.

If we want to save the Bryn we need to fight, the Bryn Euryn User Association will soon be meeting to co-ordinate action. Letters will need to be written, placards will be made, rallies will be held and if needed there will be picket lines but common sense and the wishes of the public will ultimately prevail!

Cllr. D M Roberts, Rhos on Sea
Cllr M Thomas, Rhos on Sea
Cllr R E Parry, Rhos on Sea
Cllr Paul Richards (Town Council) Colwyn Bay
Cllr Philip R Edwards, Rhos on Sea
Mr Ken Clarke Contact Conwy Countryside Service.
Dr. J.Osley / Mr Paul Mitchell, CCW, Mold
Dr M Yates, Cardiff
Mr Chris Martin Clwyd and Powys Archaeological Trust, Welshpool

Reply from the Warden

2009-07-20T20:02:00.002+01:00

Further to this 'blog'

http://save-our-bryn.blogspot.com/2009/06/response-to-wardens-reply.html

the email below has been received by a Save Our Bryn supporter in reply. Our comments/questions are in grey, the Wardens reply is in red

History of Grazing

It seems clear there is no evidence of historic grazing in living memory. Older residents and supporters of those wishing to keep the Bryn as an unrestricted, open public space confirm, no grazing in at least the last 60 years. The current use of the Bryn, as a public open space, rather than grazing land, is surely now firmly established and this is no doubt its legal use, in Planning terms? If the proposing grazing does proceed the public open space will be lost as the two uses are not compatible. I imagine introduction of grazing would require planning permission, as was the case with the change of use of the bottom field into allotments?

The only feedback I’ve had on the grazing is someone who remembers sheep grazing there from 1930s to 1950s. The Bryn has been public open space since 1932, when it was sold to the Council. I don’t see why grazing and public open space should be incompatible-it happens on other reserves and in the countryside generally. I am checking on the need for planning permission.

Site of Special Scientific Interest

As you will be aware, calcareous grasses are typically associated with limestone pavements and outcrops. The process by which calcareous grasslands becomes overgrown by scrub is part of the normal environmental cycle known as ‘natural succession’. You state ‘the Bryn is a Site of Special Scientific Interest for its calcareous grasslands, which had been maintained by grazing in the past. This interest was being lost by scrubbing over, so since 1996, in partnership with the Countryside Council for Wales, it has been maintained artificially by mowing and raking and cutting back scrub’. As there is no evidence of grazing 50 years prior to the artificial mowing by the council/CCW I would be grateful if you could advise on the relative areas over the years. Has the mowing been artificially maintaining the area of calcareous grass identified in 1996 or has it been increasing the area to perhaps reclaim some of the area lost in the 50 year absence in grazing prior to 1996?

I suspect it is the latter and now this artificial financial burden has been created, cost savings are being considered, the sole reason behind proposals to introduce grazing. Whilst the majority of users of the Bryn support bio-diversity and the like, maintaining an artificially enlarged area of calcareous grass in these difficult times should not be at the loss of the amenity provided by this public open space.

I trust your feasibility study will consider options of reducing the area of grass maintained as well as the frequency of maintaining? Does it really need to be annual?

Mowing has done both-maintained the grassland that was present in 1996 and removed scrub that has encroached over the previous decades. If natural succession was allowed the site would turn into scrub/woodland with loss of open space. As the site is deignated as a Site of Special Scientific Interest for its limestone grasslands then we have a duty to maintain its interest. Since 1996 we have recovered some of this interest and work is ongoing to maintain and enhance this interest.
We have reduced the mowing on the upper meadow since 1996 but we are looking next year to mow the lower meadow twice each summer to try and reduce the perennial rye grass.
The cost of the works is shared between ourselves and the Countryside Council for Wales, under a Section 15 management agreement, which has just been renewed for another five years.

Management Advisory Group (MAG)

Does the MAG have the authority to totally ignore the wishes of the public following any consultation exercise or would a recommendation by forward for the full council to decide?
Would now perhaps be a good time to formalise terms of reference for the MAG and consider allowing members of the public to be directly represented as local end users of the Bryn? For ease of public access could minutes of meetings (past and present), agendas, meeting dates etc be published on the council’s web site as is the case with many other committees? Allowing members of the public to observe committee meetings would also seem to be in the public interest.

The Management Advisory Group has the authority to take management decisions, other than where such decisions would conflict with agreed corporate policy or practice. It could, theoretically, ignore the wishes of the public – but in practice the Councillors are there as representatives of the local community and, in any event, wider public opinion would be a significant factor in any decision taken.
The terms of reference for the MAG are simple – being confined to overseeing the management of the Local Nature Reserve. We see no value in detailing them any further as we consider them fit for purpose.
Minutes could be put on the website but are more easily available by e-mailing Helen Jowett -Helen.Jowett@conwy.gov.uk.
The MAG meetings are not public meetings and therefore not open to the public. Local residents can make representations to their local councillors.

Feasibility Study

Clearly it is early days for your proposals and a detailed feasibility study and comprehensive public consultation will be required before the MAG can make any meaningful decision. Could you advise how much the council expect to pay to prepare the feasibility study. I presume drawings will be provided, planning consultation, legal opinion and specialist consultants will all be required so it won’t be cheap.

We are undertaking the initial feasibility exercise ourselves. More formal public consultation is likely to be undertaken should the MAG wish to progress further with the concept.

How will the lucky precipitant of the free grazing land be determined given the need for the council to be accountable to the public? Is not charging for grazing really sufficient to get around the ‘no business use’ covenant? Before committing too much effort to the feasibility study you might first want to clarify this point?

Any grazing licence would be addressed by our Property Services department. Our Legal Department has already provided advice on conformity with the terms of the covenant.

Health & Safety

I can find no details on the planning application to create allotments, 0/35363 regarding any traffic issues and note the land is managed by another council department but I trust all council departments involved will work together in considering traffic issues to what is a very narrow entrance.

Given the recent tragic storey of a dog walker killed by cattle within the last week, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/8112048.stm, how can the council say anyone using the Bryn whether they be dog walkers, children or the elderly be safe if grazing goes ahead? I trust your feasibility study will include and assessment from the Council’s H&S department with specific reference to the above case and what measures will be put in place to avoid a similar incident, should grazing ever proceed.

We would need to assess H&S issues in discussion with any potential graziers and decide what measures were needed.

There is also the safety issue in respect to any grazing animals considering the numerous instances of anti social behaviour, both in respect to the animals well being and also in relation to any injury incurred by any person under the influence of alcohol or substance abuse.

In closing, I believe that there is sufficient public outrage, concern, risk and information to hand already for the MAG to discount any grazing on the Bryn. To proceed further will result in wasted time and expense.

The MAG will, no doubt, take into account all the views put forward when deciding whether or not to proceed. I must emphasise that at present there is no firm proposal for grazing – the MAG has only agreed to considering the feasibility of the concept.

MP DISAPPOINTED AT BRYN EURYN DECISION

2009-07-20T19:53:00.000+01:00

News Release from David Jones, MP

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Westminster 20 July, 2009

Clwyd West MP, David Jones, has expressed his disappointment that the Bryn Euryn nature reserve management committee has today, by a majority, resolved to proceed with a study into the feasibility of turning part of the reserve over to grazing.

David Jones said:

“I am deeply disappointed that the committee has decided to proceed with this course despite enormous opposition from users of the reserve.

“The cost of fencing and piping water will undoubtedly be high, and possibly prohibitive, given the current economic climate and the need for the council to save money.

“I will continue to press the management committee to consider the weight of public opinion over this issue and very much hope that they will change their minds.”

ENDS

Management Committee Meeting Tomorrow - Monday 20th July

2009-07-19T19:18:00.002+01:00

The special meeting of the Bryn Euryn Management Committee is to be held tomorrow, 20th July to discuss the grazing issue.

No public access to this one but there was talk of holding a public meeting for all interested parties at a later date.

Lets hope they take note of public feeling and forget about their silly grazing idea.

Save Our Bryn Update

2009-07-16T00:56:00.002+01:00

More Comments on Council Letter

2009-07-16T00:48:00.003+01:00

Another email from a supporter,

Dear Mr.Jones,Thank you for your letter ref. LDN 2222 dated 14/7/09 re. Bryn Euryn.

I apologise for replying by email, but as the Management Committee meet next Monday 20th, I wanted you to have all the information at your disposal.We are going to summarise all our information to the local councillors before the meeting, so they have everything to hand.I will try to deal with the points in Stuart Davies' letter first.

1. The warden seems to have started the myth that the Bryn was grazed in the 30's to 50's. This is not so, when he was challenged by my neighbour his reply was 'somebody told him!' There is no evidence of previous grazing. We have a number of residents that have been walking the Bryn since 1937, and it has never been grazed in that time. The limestone grass survived very well from then until 1996 without human intervention. In fact the same walkers tell us that before 1996 the Bryn had many more wild flowers and orchids in the meadows.

2. It is not ONLY dog-walkers who are protesting, many walkers and families are unhappy. We have lost one large field to allotments already. The warden has stated that the areas to be enclosed with 'fencing and kissing gates' would be the meadows past the cottage and the upper meadow near the summit. These are the most popular areas to walk through and sit and admire the views, and is quite a large area altogether.We take the 4 months grazing statement with a pinch of salt, once the animals are in who knows?

3. Danger:- I do not think the Council realises the sheer volume of walkers, families and dog-walkers that visit the Bryn. We estimate the 200 or so at our meeting could well have been doubled if it had not been for other commitments on a wet Saturday morning. I do not think it could be compared to other sites in this way. The oft-quoted case of the vet killed by livestock is just the sort of thing that could happen. In an ideal world all dogs and children would be well-behaved and under control, we are dealing with real life here.I am not an expert on horses, but apart from the poor access to the Bryn for transportation, where will these animals be exercised, riding over the rare grass in the meadow, the temptation for owners to ride them around the lanes of the Bryn would be great, with potentially disastrous consequences should they meet an unexpected dog or walker. There are also animal welfare issues due to the fact that a lot of drinking goes on at the Bryn at night, drunken youths and horses don't mix.

4. Costs:- The Council are I am told not allowed to charge for grazing, due to a covenant on the land preventing business use. The cost of fencing and gates would be considerable, and maintenance should not be underestimated, due to vandalism, which I will come to later.Animals need water, the cost of running piping to the top meadow, and the consumption of water(I believe horses can use up to 20 litres per day), will be considerable, and an ongoing cost, also liable to the previously mentioned vandalism.Insurance, somebody has to pay for this. I suppose all this will be billed to our Council Tax. The £4000 the warden said they were trying to save will pale into insignificance, plus the fact that most of the areas they previously strimmed will not be grazed, so will strimming still continue?

There is an ongoing anti-social problem at the Bryn at night mainly. A considerable amount of drinking goes on, also at Llys Euryn. Three times in the last 3 years I have been to the Bryn with the local police to have agressive youths lighting fires and drinking in the meadows removed, my neighbours recently went up and removed two sacks of cans, bottles and rubbish after one such session. My fellow dog walkers always pick up cans etc. on their travels, though to read the comments in the Weekly News one would think all we did was deposit dog mess!There is a sign on the Bryn noticeboard asking dog-walkers to report incidents, which we always do. But we are hampered by the fact that the Countryside Dept. do not cover weekends with Warden cover, which for a leisure type area is surprising. The police do what they can, but are always at full stretch at weekends in other areas.I will send you a copy of an email my wife sent to the Councillors in May which illustrates her concerns over the animals and anti-social behaviour.I believe walkers and dog-walkers should be thanked for keeping the Bryn safe for families, and not treated as the 'baddies' in the Press.Sorry this is so long regards

Comments on Council Letter

2009-07-16T00:46:00.003+01:00

Copy of email sent by Save Our Bryn supporter to David Jones, MP

Dear Mr Jones
Thank you for your continued support of our battle to keep Bryn Euryn an unrestricted open public space. You previously mentioned you would be interested in viewing the covenants regarding the area when they arrived. We have posted most of the pages on our blog site, the rest to follow shortly. Tony Morgan has shown me the letter you received from Stuart Davies and I would like to add my comments to the ones he has already sent to you.
I feel that the council are rather missing the point in so far as the Bryn is unique in the area because it has no restrictions due to animal grazing. Only Eirias Park provides a similar open space to take our children and dogs, but that required a car or bus ride and is also earmarked for further developments in the near future. The beach has restrictions for part of the year and obviously is governed by the tides.
As for the comment about people may like to see the animals, 'see' maybe but having to walk through them may be a totally different proposition. We are surrounded by grazing livestock on every hillside, field and nature reserve so I feel these people are already well catered for. The recent article criticising the dog walkers for allowing their dogs to foul the area (the minority I might add) makes no mention of what it would be like with livestock, and who would clear that?
My neighbour who has no dog is irate about the whole idea from the point of view of animal and children safety. It would have to be very impressive fencing and gates to keep all dogs out while walking in the woods. So will we then be required to keep all dogs on leads over the whole area? Also who's going to protect livestock from drunken youths late at night? Would this be shifting the bill for strimming from the council to the police, and any farmer can tell them that fences need maintaining and livestock need water and regular checks.
I met a young woman today who has been exploring the Bryn ready to bring her children during the holidays. She was looking forward to them being able to run free and have fun without her having to worry that they'd be in danger from large grazing animals. It seems so unfair that grass is getting priority over people. Has it come to the point when we are just an inconvenience when it comes to 'managing' nature. I used to be a volunteer with countryside services until I started to question the annually cutting back of healthy young tree saplings to artificially protect areas where nature was doing it hardest to cover with woodland. This selection is the current in thinking but no doubt at some point all this will change as a new theory on conservation takes presidence. Meanwhile why not just let young and old enjoy the freedom to admire the views, enjoy the sound of crickets in the long grass and stop trying to manage everything. No doubt the strimmers will still be out cutting back the woodland paths and decapitating the orchids as they did this year, or are we paying for that separately?
Sorry to go on so but I feel we are banging our heads on a bureaucratic machine driven by people who have no knowledge of the strong community spirit we enjoy on the Bryn. We do all in our power to protect it, notify the authorities of problems, clear litter, cans and broken glass. I don't feel the council has any idea how much we actually save them with our efforts and good will.
Sincerely your

Letter 3

2009-07-16T00:44:00.002+01:00

Letter 2

2009-07-16T00:41:00.001+01:00

Council Letter to David Jones, MP

2009-07-16T00:29:00.006+01:00

Following the recent rally David Jones wrote to the Council, copy of the reply below, it seem the same old thing from the council...

Lease - Last Page

2009-07-16T00:28:00.002+01:00

Lease Page 14

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Lease Page 13

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Lease Page 12

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Lease Page 11

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Lease Page 10

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Lease Page 9

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Lease page 8

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Lease page 7

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Lease page 6

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Lease page 5

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Lease page 4

2009-07-12T21:48:00.002+01:00

Lease plan

2009-07-12T21:41:00.003+01:00

Here the plan that came with the lease, I'll try and post the rest of the pages tomorrow

Lease page 3

2009-07-12T21:39:00.003+01:00

..the next page

Lease Page 2

2009-07-12T21:36:00.003+01:00

Next page, if anyone fancies having a go typing out what it actually says feel free, no prizes but it could be interesting!

Bryn Lease

2009-07-12T21:32:00.002+01:00

Following a freedom of information request the Council have now provided a copy of the lease to one of the Save Our Bryn supporters, copies below, there's a few pages so it might take a while to post them all

Dog mess comments from Dave Jones Blog

2009-07-10T23:50:00.002+01:00

There's a few recent comments worth re-posting here

http://davidjonesblog.com/2009/06/22/hands-off-bryn-euryn/#comments

JessicaJuly 9, 2009 at 5:56 pm
In today’s North Wales Weekly News there is a totally biased article with comments from Phil Edwards, of course not linked to his support for plans to put livestock on the Bryn! The I walk the Bryn twice daily and it is not that bad, I’ve just walked down Dinerth Road and seen two piles of dog poo, this is a universal problem, no worse at the Bryn than other places, considering the number of dogs that go there. I’ve never seen these places where ‘the air is thick flies and the stench of dog mess’, if you want to see flies and smells wait until you get livestock and manure there! Pauline Jones is totally deluded to say ‘nobody clears up’, I and the 40 or 50 dog owners I know all do, such exaggeration does her no credit.

Tony MorganJuly 9, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I have just seen the article in the North Wales News, supported by comments from Phil Edwards of Plaid Cymru.We all know this article is a huge exaggeration and would do credit to the tabloids!!It is strange that after my neighbours and I walking the Bryn for 60 years in some cases, the dog mess issue should suddenly become news, could there be some ulterior motive?I only hope that come election time people will remember who supported them, rather than a few patches of grass.

Beth BowenJuly 10, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Having read the article in the weekly news titled ‘Beautiful nature reserve blighted by dog mess’ the only word that sprang to mind seeing the smiling face of a well known councillor was ‘vindictive’. It made the area sound like an open toilet, which it most certainly isn’t. Yes the field at the bottom is used by people who sit in their cars and just open the door for their dogs to relieve themselves before driving away again. I personally haven’t seen a dog warden for months. The rest of the Bryn certainly is not as described. Also excuse me P Jones saying “it is awful nobody clears up after each other”, well yes actually they do. I noticed a pile on the drive of the house up there and removed it to the nearby bin. Likewise when I see piles on the paths and pavements. Instead of moaning to the papers why don’t you do something about is yourself. Why do people expect someone else to act for them, moaning about litter, dog mess etc, while not lifting a finger to do anything about it?The soon to be formalised Bryn Euryn Users Ass will promote responsable desposal of dog waste to all our members and encourage others to do likewise. It is obvious by the level of use of the bins and numbers of people carrying bags, that yet again it is the minority giving us all a bad name. God help us if they introduce grazing because then the whingers will really know what stench and flies are all about. What next, all dogs on leads or a total ban. It would appear that some people will not tolerate any opposition to their cosy little plans and set out to punish those who try to put forward a different point of view.

Llandudno record producer Gordon Lorenz fined for dog fouling

2009-07-10T23:41:00.001+01:00

The trouble is a few bad owners give us and their dogs a bad name.
Much of the mess to the Bryn is close to the car park, reading the storey below sounds very familiar to how a few use the Bryn car park: -

Llandudno record producer Gordon Lorenz fined for dog fouling
http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2009/07/09/llandudno-record-producer-gordon-lorenz-fined-for-dog-fouling-55243-24105857/

Magistrates in Llandudno heard dog warden Barbara Cowling was parked in her van on March 24. She saw the producer’s silver Mercedes drive into a car park and stop nearby.
Prosecutor Stuart Dunn said: “Barbara Cowling saw a dog jump out of the vehicle, run onto a grass area and foul. The gentleman made no attempt to get out.
“He drove forward and called the dog, which jumped back into the vehicle, then he drove off. Barbara Cowling recognised him as Mr Lorenz, as she’d dealt with him on several other occasions.”

Dog mess is a blight on Rhos-on-Sea beauty spot

2009-07-10T23:19:00.000+01:00

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2009/07/09/dog-mess-is-a-blight-on-rhos-on-sea-beauty-spot-55243-24106464/
Jul 9 2009 by Richard Evans, North Wales Weekly News
A POPULAR nature reserve is being blighted by dog dirt, say pet owners and walkers.
Bryn Euryn in Rhos-on-Sea is popular walking spot for many who use the hill to unwind and take in the breathtaking views.
But those who use the reserve say in some areas the air is thick with flies and the stench of dog mess.
Bryn Euryn is already in the midst of a hot debate as the council has proposed to graze livestock on the land to help manage grass land. Dog owners fear this could then see areas fenced off to stop dogs roaming near horses, ponies or sheep.
Mum Pauline Jones from Rhos-on-Sea takes her Jack Russell for daily walks at Bryn Euryn and said the dog mess was spoiling the area.
“It is terrible up there, it is awful nobody clears up after each other, it is really bad,” she said.
“It is a beautiful place, but it is blighted by dog poo, especially with the hot weather we’ve had recently, it attracts flies. If people can’t be responsible for their dogs they shouldn’t have dogs!”
A 31-year-old dad from Glan Conwy agreed: “It gets stuck on my feet, it gets stuck on my daughter’s feet, it is disgusting.
“It is a concern because obviously there is a risk of disease when you’ve got small children – it can lead to blindness, I walk there quite often but I’m getting to the end of my tether.”
Mark Evans, 30, from Colwyn Bay, regularly walks his dog Lady at the nature reserve.
“I always pick up after my dog, people should be responsible for their animals,” he said.
“There is a dog bin in the car park, but there is never enough bins, so that could help. The mess is horrible as it is a nice place to go for a walk but the dog dirt just spoils it.”
Rhos-on-Sea councillor Phil Edwards said the problem was also prevalent at a new children’s playground at Brookfield Drive in Rhos-on-Sea. Cllr Edwards called for the council to take a tougher stance on the matter.
“Dog mess can cause blindness in children, it is totally irresponsible. Dog owners are to blame, the council will really have to look at this seriously because dog fouling is becoming a huge problem in a lot of areas.”
Cllr Phillip Evans is Conwy’s cabinet member for public protection and said that the council would certainly act to prosecute repeat offenders.
“If people report it to the council they do take it seriously. The dog wardens will go out and carry out observations, and people are given fixed penalties of £75. If somebody is detected having committed the offence more than once we will prosecute and they face greater sentences in court.”
To report dog fouling to Conwy County Council’s dog warden contact 01492 575222.
richard.evans

Dog Control Orders Consultation

2009-07-09T23:31:00.003+01:00

Have a look at this council website, how long before they suggest the same for the Bryn?

I get the feeling someone doesn't like dogs.

Conwy County Borough Council propose to make dog control orders in the areas of Llanfairfechan Beach and Llansannan. Below you will find specific information about this proposal in each area and how you can make a representation. You can also view a map showing the exclusion zones.

http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?cat=680&doc=24514

Management Committee Meeting

2009-07-03T11:46:00.002+01:00

There is to be a special meeting of the Bryn Euryn Management Committee on 20th July to discuss the grazing issue. Following this it is proposed to hold a public meeting for all interested parties.

Anyone wishing to help form the Users Association, or who has experiences they could share with us, please contact save.our.bryn@hotmail.co.uk.

Have Your Say Questionnaire - Latest Update

2009-07-01T22:10:00.002+01:00

170 questionnaires have now been completed, all against grazing, you may recall one was initially in favour - a swift phone call has confirmed this was indeed a mistake!

Of the 170 returns todate all who expressed an opinion were in favour of the creation of a Bryn Euryn User Association and in favour of this Association being represented on the council's Bryn Euryn Management Committee and 115 have asked to join the Bryn Euryn User Association when formed.

Next step for Save Our Bryn is to set up the Assoication, agree a draft constitution etc. Hopefully we can have our first meeting soon, watch this space!

Bryn Euryn Protestors Battle on!

2009-07-01T22:03:00.002+01:00

Another good write up in this weeks Poineer

Link to half the article below, the second page seems to be missing

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/Bryn-Euryn-Protestors-Battle-on.5417234.jp

There's also 2 good letters on the letters page.

David Jones MP letter to warden

2009-06-29T20:59:00.002+01:00

David Jones has kindly forwarded a copy of his letter to us. Please see below.

BRYN EURYN NATURE RESERVE
I have been consulted by a large number of local residents with regard to the management committee’s proposals for the future of Bryn Euryn nature reserve.

I see that at the last meeting of the committee, the principle of ‘management through grazing’ was agreed and that it was resolved that ‘proposals/options be investigated and further considered’.

I must tell you that the proposal to graze Bryn Euryn has caused severe concern to my constituents. On Saturday last week, a meeting was held at the nature reserve’s car park, which was attended by up to 200 residents. The overwhelming view of those present was that the proposal was most unwelcome, in that it would severely inhibit the freedom of walkers to enjoy the reserve.

I understand that it has been contended that Bryn Euryn has been grazed in the past. A number of senior people present last Saturday (one with over 70 years’ knowledge of the Bryn) assured me that they could not recall any part of the Bryn Euryn reserve ever having been grazed in living memory.

Concern was also expressed as to the danger to walkers and their dogs, the cost of erecting and maintaining fencing and, generally, the fact that Bryn Euryn would be a far less pleasant place of resort for local residents.

I have no doubt that the management committee meant well when it proposed that Bryn Euryn be grazed. However, I can assure you that the proposal is very unwelcome indeed and is causing a great deal of unhappiness to a large number of people.

Given that Bryn Euryn is meant to be a place of leisure for local residents, and given the very high strength of local feeling over the issue, I would urge that the management committee, at its next meeting, give full consideration to the likely impact of the proposal upon residents and to the fact that a significantly large sample of those residents have already amply demonstrated their opposition by consulting their local councillors and Member of Parliament and attending a meeting on a wet Saturday morning.

I therefore would strongly suggest that the committee review its decision and abandon the proposal.

I look forward to hearing from you in early course please.

Yours sincerely,

Huge Turnout for Rally Against Grazing

2009-06-28T23:44:00.004+01:00

From David Jones' Blog site: -

http://davidjonesblog.com/2009/06/27/rally-at-bryn-euryn/

Well, there was an excellent turn-out at Bryn Euryn car park today, despite the weather; about 200 people and probably almost half as many dogs.
Many of the older people who attended told me that, contrary to the claims of the management committee, they could not remember livestock ever having been grazed on the Bryn.
Local county councillors Roger Parry and Merfyn Thomas also turned up and confirmed they would be doing everything they could to stop the unpopular plan.
I’ll be writing to the committee next week, but in the meantime am posting a picture of just a few of the humans and canines who attended.

Thanks to must also go to local Blogger, Thoughts of Oscar for his reports, People Power sums it up!

http://thoughtsofoscar.blogspot.com/2009/06/people-power.html

Thanks also to http://www.birdseyeviewofwales.co.uk/ for taking the aerial photographs of the rally, free of charge, we'll post some as soon as we work out how!

Have Your Say Questionnaire

2009-06-28T23:08:00.002+01:00

Save Our Bryn supporters produced a little questionnaire for the public meeting called by David Jones MP yesterday.

There's still more to come in as not everyone there had a chance to fill one in (the huge turnout resulted in a shortage of pens), also many supporters couldn't make the meeting. So far we have counted over 130 completed, all against grazing on the Bryn, bar one in favour but this may have been a mistake!

Final figures will be confirmed when counting is finished but so far the vast majority of those who completed the questionnaire are also in favour of the creation of a Bryn Euryn User Association and in favour of this Association being represented on the council's Bryn Euryn Management Committee.

A good number of those who completed the questionnaire have also asked to become a Member of the Bryn Euryn User Association.

Saving the Bryn is set to be on-going and best achieved by an association of those who actually use it, hopefully working with the council's management committee.

There is a copy of the questionnaire below, feel free to complete with YES or NO to each question and email to save.our.bryn@hotmail.co.uk

Thanks to all who turned up with special thanks to David Jones MP for arranging and councillors Merfyn Thomas and Roger Parry for showing their support.

SAVE OUR BRYN – HAVE YOUR SAY

I object to the proposals to introduce livestock grazing to the open spaces on Bryn Euryn

I support the creation of the Bryn Euryn User Association

I think the Bryn Euryn Management Committee should include representatives of the Bryn Euryn User Association; meetings should be open to the public and minutes made available

I would like to become a Member of the Bryn Euryn User Association (Membership free just fill in your details below)

Name: …………………………………………………...
Address: . …………………………………………………..
……………………Telephone: …………………
Email: (should you wish to receive updates) ………..……@..........